Energy Matters Global and Domestic

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Gibbo2286
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Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by Gibbo2286 »

white exec wrote:
26 Nov 2019, 12:29
Good few of the "deals" involving on-road and at-home charging/energy will be opaque enough, so that the sales folk can quote a few attention-grabbing headlines, and so tie folk in.

I thought the 35p/kWh seemed a high price to pay roadside, compared with what you might achieve at home, off-peak. No wonder the oil companies want in - and no tankering (or staff?) to have to contend with. Interesting...
They do though have the main infrastructure in place as far as siting is concerned, getting permission for new filling stations has been a nightmare for years, if they can add on electricity as one of their offerings it could work out cheaper for the motorist than having new specialist sites developed.

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Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by Mandrake »

white exec wrote:
26 Nov 2019, 12:29
Good few of the "deals" involving on-road and at-home charging/energy will be opaque enough, so that the sales folk can quote a few attention-grabbing headlines, and so tie folk in.

I thought the 35p/kWh seemed a high price to pay roadside, compared with what you might achieve at home, off-peak. No wonder the oil companies want in - and no tankering (or staff?) to have to contend with. Interesting...
Part of the reason the cost is a lot higher (approx 3x) than home charging is the cost of charger installation.

A home charger only costs a few hundred quid, a 50kW Rapid charger costs around £20k to install not including extra grid provisioning or works required to bring power to the unit if it is not already nearby. And then there is a maintenance contract to cover repairs and maintenance and you also have eventual replacement to consider when it becomes too old or obsolete. (10-15 years is the predicted lifespan of a rapid charger unit from memory for depreciation and asset control purposes)

So the time to pay back investment is surprisingly long even if utilisation is high. So unlike some EV drivers I don't begrudge rapid charging being more expensive than the electricity only cost of charging at home - they need a return on investment otherwise it's not a viable business.

At the end of the day they are providing a service - charging away from home, where you need it, when you need it, (hopefully) reliably, and at a speed that is approximately 10x faster than charging at home. (20x or more faster in the future) That should be worth something.

But there should be a balance found between paying back investment and making a profitable business, and gouging. BP I think it was originally entered the rapid charger market in the UK aiming to be at 50p/kWh however started with an "introductory offer" of 25p/kWh. In the meantime Instavolt launched at 35p/kWh and I think BP has settled on a similar price and given up on their initial 50p/kWh pitch which turned out to be well above the market average and nobody was biting.

It's a competitive market and I expect plenty more jostling between the players as the market matures. It's still very early days.

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white exec
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Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by white exec »

Mandrake wrote:
02 Dec 2019, 16:46
It's a competitive market and I expect plenty more jostling between the players as the market matures. It's still very early days.
I take the point about installation investment and pay-back.
If home charging can be the norm for many owners, periodic rapid charging costs (long journeys, etc) are not much of an issue. Business users will just charge it (!) to expenses.
Guess the supermarkets will come in with cut-price offers on charging, much as they do now on liquid fuel.
At least the latter won't be peddling low-grade juice! :wink:

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Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

white exec wrote:
02 Dec 2019, 17:28
At least the latter won't be peddling low-grade juice! :wink:
Nope, just slow grade (so you have to spend longer in the shops while waiting for your vehicle to get enough of a charge to escape from their clutches!). :D

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Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by bobins »

Ah ! But if you spend over £100 in-store, then we'll upgrade your charging rate next time you visit..........

Just think of the marketing opportunities :-k \:D/ #-o

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Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

bobins wrote:
02 Dec 2019, 18:41
Ah ! But if you spend over £100 in-store, then we'll upgrade your charging rate next time you visit..........
Provided it is within 48 hours!

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Nuclear-the long read

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Was mulling over State Aid, and the "Energy" market, and wondered how this fitted in with the French Government's stake in EDF. Landed on a couple of articles, but this "Long Read" from the Guardian from a couple of years ago, which focuses on the "deal struck" for the Hinkley Point Development , maps out a bit of the history. It surprised me at how integral to UK Nuclear energy generation EDF are/ and for EDF read "The State of France".

I didn't get to the end of the article on first reading, and while journalists write articles from a particular point of view I found it revealing and informative.

Hinkley Point C-The 'dreadful deal' behind the world's most expensive power plant

Regards Neil
Last edited by NewcastleFalcon on 18 Dec 2019, 21:16, edited 2 times in total.

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Mandrake
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Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by Mandrake »

Broken link Neil.

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Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Mandrake wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 11:13
Broken link Neil.
Thanks Simon, missed the t of plant in the url fixed now

Hinkley Point C-The 'dreadful deal' behind the world's most expensive power plant

Regards Neil

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Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by Gibbo2286 »

"from the Guardian "

As it's from the Guardian I'd guess that if the Labour party had done the same deal it would be "Wonderful, the best ever."

But that's politics innit. :-D

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Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Britains largest battery is actually a lake.

Take your pick Robert Llewellyn, or some other bloke!





Its scale of generating capacity, if this table is to be believed is in excess of any of the UK's 8 currently operating Nuclear Power stations.
screenshot
screenshot


Regards Neil
Last edited by NewcastleFalcon on 18 Dec 2019, 19:20, edited 2 times in total.

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bobins
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Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by bobins »

Whilst it's true it's got a high generating capacity, it can only do that for a relatively short time - but that is actually exactly what the pumped storage sites were designed for : very quick run-up time to provide near instant power to the grid. I visited Dinorwig many years ago - an incredibly impressive site :)

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Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by white exec »

I went under Ben Cruachan years ago, to the pumped storage installation there - a cathedral-like cavern, housing water turbines, pumps and generators. The company guide drove us around half a mile into the mountain, in a Transit minibus.

As said, pumped storage is just that: its net generating contribution is zero, but it allows vast amounts of power to be called on within seconds by CEGB, something which most fuel-based generators cannot manage. When the extra power is no longer required (eg 'off-peak'), the water is pumped - by the same kit - back up to the high level reservoir/loch.

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Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by Paul-R »

Both of the pumped storage generators are a vital part of the plan if ever we have to run a "Black Start" on the nations other generating stations.

What's Black Start?

Well, surprisingly most generating stations can't restart themselves from scratch when they are shut down even if they can be spun up by whatever is driving the turbines. They need to be fed with power to energise the generator windings and then brought up to speed to match the 50Hz network frequency before power can be supplied into grid.

A Black Start is when all of the UK power stations have shut down following a cascade of blackouts. There has a to be a staged recovery and that's when the pumped stations will be needed. They're not quite so important nowadays compared to when the only other source was the DC power feed from France. Today we also have a DC link to, I think, the Netherlands and, of course, there are a lot of PV farms that can feed power in during the daytime.

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Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by bobins »

The concept of a nationwide 'Black Start' was always (and still is to some extent) and extremely concerning situation. I can well imagine that the 'men in suits' have spent countless hours pondering over that scenario...... 8-[