Energy Matters Global and Domestic

[Peter.N.]

Sounds interesting, if its possible why hasn't someone thought of it before, there are plenty of desalination plants about especially in hot countries. I am intrigued.

Peter

[Stickyfinger]

The wonders of Ai bringing the thread alive with images

[Peter.N.]

Does it make hydrogen?

Peter

[myglaren]

[thorter]

Gravity Batteries

The problem with energy storage for countering intermittent generation is one of scale. Taking UK electricity as the example, the typical total of daily grid generation is 750GWh.This would more than double for universal adoption of electric cars and heat pumps. Periods of low wind can last for several days. Thus to allow for the elimination of fossil powered generation, and including the contribution of ongoing nuclear and imports, storage of 10TWh looks necessary (ie 10,000GWh).

Currently, pump storage generates about 11GWh per day, so about 0.1% of what would eventually be needed.

Now concrete has a density of 2.5 times water, so you might as well replace the weight in a gravity battery with a tank of 2.5 times the volume of the concrete block and with the same head. Or if the weight was iron, about the only vaguely affordable denser material, 7 times. Much easier to just build pump storage hydro. All it would take is make upper and lower reservoirs totalling 1000 times the current schemes, and of the same vertical head.

There, should be easy to do by 2030!

[Rp0thejester]

The wonders of Ai bringing the thread alive with images

I didn't realise Jim did pottery as well! Is there anything he can't do apart from eating an adults meal....

[Peter.N.]

We went round the Cruachan Pump storage system near Oban many years ago. They take you underground to the generators/pumps its huge! the brush gear takes up a whole floor and the pipes and valves are gigantic. The wife didn't care much for being underground but our little lad enjoyed it especially the diesel shunter in Oban station yard which had been left running with no one in sight, it rattled and vibrated quietly to itself. No fences you could walk round the shunting yard.

Peter

[CitroJim]

I didn't realise Jim did pottery as well! Is there anything he can't do apart from eating an adults meal....

I did pretty well yesterday Ask Mick! A nice piece of cod, mushy peas, salad in place of chips and bakewell tart and custard to follow... It was yummy!

Then I went for a run to work it off

Pottery is something I've never tried...

[bobins]

Gravity Batteries

The problem with energy storage for countering intermittent generation is one of scale. Taking UK electricity as the example, the typical total of daily grid generation is 750GWh.This would more than double for universal adoption of electric cars and heat pumps. Periods of low wind can last for several days. Thus to allow for the elimination of fossil powered generation, and including the contribution of ongoing nuclear and imports, storage of 10TWh looks necessary (ie 10,000GWh).

<snippety snip>

There, should be easy to do by 2030!

This all helps to highlight the glaring problems with the dash for electrons in my view. It can be summed up in one simple phrase:

"Idealism over Realism"

[NewcastleFalcon]

Perhaps the key word there is "Dash", and arbitrary dates like 2030/2035/2050 etc. Electrification will happen and perceived problems will be overcome. How long the transition will take is a matter for the history student looking back, rather than the crystal ball gazer in 2024.

Oil and gas had to go through a similar phase before it became the dominant energy source over the previous king Coal. Back in Pennsylvania in the 1860's We have this primitive scene.

History of the 42 Gallon Oil Barrel

A decent read https://aoghs.org/transportation/histor ... il-barrel/

Coal was king so far in the industrial revolution, and the oil industry with its actual barrels was there in those early days to provide kerosene for lighting, save slaughtering all those whales for their oil.

An "energy matters global and domestic" discussion group in those days may well have said look at the infrastructure that would be required for this oil stuff to heat and light homes/ be fuel for transport and farming and develop new industry across Pennsylvania, never mind the world. It's impossible, never going to happen, going to cost far too much to find it and get it out of the ground never mind refine it and distribute it to where it is needed.
(the 1860's discussion group would have no concept that oil could be found under the sea bed, drilled and extracted and shipped ashore in pipelines be refined and arrive at filling stations to fuel millions of automobiles)

Some time was taken but the developments did indeed happen and eventually oil/gas/petrol/paint/plastics etc and electricity made with the stuff did reach Northumberland, in the United Kingdom.

My view is that the impetus for the "dash" has been a long time coming, and electrification will proceed at a pace now much faster than the evolution of oil and gas, although if you asked the early 20th Century horse breeders and hay makers, they were rapidly put out of business over a couple of decades by the oil and transport revolution.

One thing is sure every 2024 crystal ball gazer, myself, nay-sayer and over-optimist alike, will be wrong about the transition to electrification, and the pace of reduction in use of fossil fuels in the generation mix, and directly in domestic heating/transport and industry. The 2124 history student may have just a chance of explaining what did happen and why it happened.

Neil

[bobins]

I think the problem is that time isn't on our side. The unstoppable force of evolution takes precedence over any government edict, technological advancement or environmental campaigning. The 'climate crisis' - just like the metaphorical oil tanker - can't be stopped or turned around in time. There are too many people putting too much pressure on their habitat, and they are (mostly) all doing too much and buying too much.
Population explosions and then collapses happen all the time in nature. We're all subject to the evolutionary process.

[Gibbo2286]

Well I'm doing my bit, this is the screen from my Powervault battery app this morning, nothing from the grid, house usage and battery charging all coming from my solar panels.
So the mighty problems suggested by all cars becoming EVs could be really exaggerated by those opposing the transition
If the solar panel owners all go for added batteries and the EV batteries can themselves feed back to the grid at peak times the problems can be considerable less than claimed.

[myglaren]

I think the problem is that time isn't on our side. The unstoppable force of evolution takes precedence over any government edict, technological advancement or environmental campaigning. The 'climate crisis' - just like the metaphorical oil tanker - can't be stopped or turned around in time. There are too many people putting too much pressure on their habitat, and they are (mostly) all doing too much and buying too much.
Population explosions and then collapses happen all the time in nature. We're all subject to the evolutionary process.

One huge drag on the adoption of new technologies is that early adopters pay a high price, sometimes a very high price, until the technology becomes widespread and manufacturing costs reduce and improvements are made to efficiency.

BEVs and heat pumps being the current points of focus.

[bobins]

Well I'm doing my bit, this is the screen from my Powervault battery app this morning, nothing from the grid, house usage and battery charging all coming from my solar panels.
So the mighty problems suggested by all cars becoming EVs could be really exaggerated by those opposing the transition
If the solar panel owners all go for added batteries and the EV batteries can themselves feed back to the grid at peak times the problems can be considerable less than claimed.

If I had a roof that could take them, and I could make the numbers add up, then I'd certainly be looking at solar panels at home.

Exaggeration exists on both sides of the argument and proponents on each side normally (but not always) have a vested (financial) interest in promoting their argument. This, however, misses the point. In the end it's a numbers game in that when you look at the numbers globally it becomes unrealistic or, indeed, idealistic. Most arguments seem to lean towards building things - be it BEVs, wind farms, infrastructure, electron storage, better homes, etc, etc.
Build more, eh ? Build, construct, make, more. Now look at the global population and look at how many things need to be built or constructed or made to make a difference. ....and that's just with the existing population. Now add in the fact that it's a growing global population. Now add in the fact it's a modernising population and people want 'bigger, better, faster, more'. Each construction has an environmental penalty - you don't harvest a BEV ready grown off of a tree, it has to built. Same for wind farms and everything else. It's a numbers game in the end.

[Gibbo2286]

With my storage battery now 100% charged the solar panels are returning 2.1 Kw to the grid. Shoulda bought the next size up battery.