Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start
Moderator: RichardW
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Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start
I would test the glow plugs now you have managed to get them out. It is not uncommon for glow plugs to fail in such a way as they APPEAR to be working, but are not working correctly. It is simple to test them, but you do need to be careful, as they will get hot (so make sure the test area is clear of anything inflammable). All you need to do (apart from taking temperature related precautions) is to power them up, and see where they glow. If the glow (and they will light up) is at the tip the glow plug is working properly. However, if it is further down the element the glow plug has failed.
James
ex BX 1.9
ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
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Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
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Yes, I am paranoid, but am I paranoid ENOUGH?
Out amongst the stars, looking for a world of my own!
ex BX 1.9
ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
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Yes, I am paranoid, but am I paranoid ENOUGH?
Out amongst the stars, looking for a world of my own!
- white exec
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and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S - x 1752
Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start
Yes, that's the best test. Tip should glow orange-hot within a few seconds. Don't keep them connected for more than 10 secs, because they can be damaged if unable to shunt the heat away.
Beru have an exemplary reputation, and are regarded by many as best choice. NGK have something of a reputation for short life.
Not really possible to make resistance checks on GPs, as the resistance is extremely low.
Each GP should pull about 11-12A from a 12v source, so around 50A for the set of four.
If you have a high-rated DC ammeter handy, you can check what the GP relay is delivering to the plugs.
There is a 75A version of this, by Sealey (available from Amazon, etc.) It simply clips on to the wire, and doesn't involve cutting it.
Even though all the GPs are in good shape, it has been known for the heavy-duty wiring to and from the GP relay to develop poor connections, so limiting the current to the GPs.
Check for good clean contact:
- Batt+ feed terminal on the GP relay
- Other end of Batt+ cable, where it joins the Batt+ block/connector
- Main output cable from relay to GP 'rail'
- Internal main relay contacts (may have become arc-damaged or oxidised)
- The GP 'rail' connections
If you can meter up the current being delivered to the GPs, and it is up to scratch, then that would give most of the above a green light.
It has, BTW, been known for PSA to skimp on the wiring between GP relay and GP rail. The size of this cable ought to be as stout (about 6mm²) as the Batt+ cable arriving at the GP relay. In some cases, twin cables of about 2.5mm² were used on the output side, but on some occasions this was reduced to one. Worth looking at, as a small cable here will noticeably reduce available power at the GPs.
___________
On the white smoke - Does this persist at all into normal driving, or is it limited to a cold engine/engine warming up? If you start the engine, and drive straight off, for how long does it smoke? Is the smoke a moderate amount, or copious clouds of fog?
Beru have an exemplary reputation, and are regarded by many as best choice. NGK have something of a reputation for short life.
Not really possible to make resistance checks on GPs, as the resistance is extremely low.
Each GP should pull about 11-12A from a 12v source, so around 50A for the set of four.
If you have a high-rated DC ammeter handy, you can check what the GP relay is delivering to the plugs.
There is a 75A version of this, by Sealey (available from Amazon, etc.) It simply clips on to the wire, and doesn't involve cutting it.
Even though all the GPs are in good shape, it has been known for the heavy-duty wiring to and from the GP relay to develop poor connections, so limiting the current to the GPs.
Check for good clean contact:
- Batt+ feed terminal on the GP relay
- Other end of Batt+ cable, where it joins the Batt+ block/connector
- Main output cable from relay to GP 'rail'
- Internal main relay contacts (may have become arc-damaged or oxidised)
- The GP 'rail' connections
If you can meter up the current being delivered to the GPs, and it is up to scratch, then that would give most of the above a green light.
It has, BTW, been known for PSA to skimp on the wiring between GP relay and GP rail. The size of this cable ought to be as stout (about 6mm²) as the Batt+ cable arriving at the GP relay. In some cases, twin cables of about 2.5mm² were used on the output side, but on some occasions this was reduced to one. Worth looking at, as a small cable here will noticeably reduce available power at the GPs.
___________
On the white smoke - Does this persist at all into normal driving, or is it limited to a cold engine/engine warming up? If you start the engine, and drive straight off, for how long does it smoke? Is the smoke a moderate amount, or copious clouds of fog?
Chris
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Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start
Hi Chris,
The white/grey smoke is moderate and if I start the engine and drive straight off it is gone within about a minute, sometimes maybe 2 minutes when I have to stop because of traffic lights. There is virtually no smoke during normal drive after heat up. The van is not using any coolant.
Carlo
The white/grey smoke is moderate and if I start the engine and drive straight off it is gone within about a minute, sometimes maybe 2 minutes when I have to stop because of traffic lights. There is virtually no smoke during normal drive after heat up. The van is not using any coolant.
Carlo
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Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start
If you've removed the glowplugs, I would just fit new ones (Beru).
If the white smoke stops, job done!
If the white smoke stops, job done!
- white exec
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- Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
- My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S - x 1752
- white exec
- Moderating Team
- Posts: 7445
- Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
- Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
- My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S - x 1752
Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start
That's what I was wondering. Copious white smoke - an ongoing fog when accelerator is used - is sure a sign of coolant (ethylene glycol) being burned - i.e. HG failure.CPtje wrote: ↑02 Oct 2018, 13:35 The white/grey smoke is moderate and if I start the engine and drive straight off it is gone within about a minute, sometimes maybe 2 minutes when I have to stop because of traffic lights. There is virtually no smoke during normal drive after heat up. The van is not using any coolant.
Really does point to GPs.
Might also be worth chucking 1:200 of dieselclean (Wynn's, Millers', or 3CV) into the next fill-up, which will give the injectors a remedial purge.
Chris
- CPtje
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- My Cars: Fiat Ducato with Peugeot 1.9TD XUD9 Bosch injection pump
Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start
Oke guys,
just ordered 4 Beru glow plugs. Now just waiting for delivery, might take a couple of days.
When mounting them should I use some copper grease or better not. Cannot get a decent wrench fit to mount them so need to do it using a ringspanner (?) and tighten them on "feel"?
Carlo
just ordered 4 Beru glow plugs. Now just waiting for delivery, might take a couple of days.
When mounting them should I use some copper grease or better not. Cannot get a decent wrench fit to mount them so need to do it using a ringspanner (?) and tighten them on "feel"?
Carlo
Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start
If you have gone to the trouble of taking them out I would replace them. I believe there is any time scale when they should be changed . Have you checked to see if they work?
- white exec
- Moderating Team
- Posts: 7445
- Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
- Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
- My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S - x 1752
Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start
Usual to run GPs until one fails, and then replace the set. The short ones used on these engines are not expensive.
Yes to some copper grease on the new plugs.
Yes to some copper grease on the new plugs.
Chris
- CPtje
- Posts: 33
- Joined: 01 Oct 2018, 15:42
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- My Cars: Fiat Ducato with Peugeot 1.9TD XUD9 Bosch injection pump
Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start
Inserted new GP's but unfortunately no luck.
Is there something that changes the timing during cold and that might be stuck or not working properly? When warm, everything seems to be OK.
Carlo
Is there something that changes the timing during cold and that might be stuck or not working properly? When warm, everything seems to be OK.
Carlo
- moizeau
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Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start
Has it always done this, since you've had the camper, or is it something new? Have you cleared the water out of the fuel filter recently? (Just re-read your post Gibbo)
Pete
Notice the BX is still top the list but sadly gone
Notice the BX is still top the list but sadly gone
- CPtje
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Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start
I have the camper a couple of years now, and it has always done this in some way. Because it also lost coolant I had the complete head replaced beginning of this year, including of course the timing belt and such.
Hoped this would also have solved the smoke during cold start but it did not. Because I would like to use the camper for another long long period I would like to solve this, also because it sometimes is a little embarrassing to leave others in my smoke when driving away. My garage says it is not a problem but still, would like to solve it.
Gonna check the water in the filter this week, although there is no warning light during operation.
Carlo
Hoped this would also have solved the smoke during cold start but it did not. Because I would like to use the camper for another long long period I would like to solve this, also because it sometimes is a little embarrassing to leave others in my smoke when driving away. My garage says it is not a problem but still, would like to solve it.
Gonna check the water in the filter this week, although there is no warning light during operation.
Carlo
- moizeau
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- Posts: 1580
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407 HDI 136 auto
C4 2l petrol coupé
2010 Dispatch III HDI 90
AND a 1980 Z1000ST
AND a 1983 GPz1100 inj
AND a 1995 Zephyr 1100
AND a 1980 Z650 (my moped) - x 315
Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start
Regarding water in the diesel filter, there is a plastic drain screw on the bottom, fit a hose to the nipple on the screw, unscrew the it a little, not all the way, let a quantity of fluid drain out into a container, tighten the drain screw, repurge. Start the engine, check to see if the liquid drained smells of diesel or weak diesel.
It may also be something as simple as the pump is slightly out. Scribe a line where the pumps mounts the engine. Undo the 3 nut/bolts, (can't remember) a little so that the pump can be rotated. Do one back up. Start the engine, unscrew the re-tightened one a little and rotate the pump a few mm in both directions slowly to see if it improves. Bit like a distributor on the old petrol cars. If not, because of the pre- scribed line you can put it back to where it was before. Not scientific, but will give you an idea.
It may also be something as simple as the pump is slightly out. Scribe a line where the pumps mounts the engine. Undo the 3 nut/bolts, (can't remember) a little so that the pump can be rotated. Do one back up. Start the engine, unscrew the re-tightened one a little and rotate the pump a few mm in both directions slowly to see if it improves. Bit like a distributor on the old petrol cars. If not, because of the pre- scribed line you can put it back to where it was before. Not scientific, but will give you an idea.
Pete
Notice the BX is still top the list but sadly gone
Notice the BX is still top the list but sadly gone
- white exec
- Moderating Team
- Posts: 7445
- Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
- Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
- My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S - x 1752
Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start
If you have access to the Haynes manual** (#1379 is the one I have here) for the XUD 1.7/1.9 diesel engines, it details how to check and adjust timing on the Bosch pump.
Also, and maybe relevant - especially as you have had this cold-start smoke issue for some time - it details checking the action of the thermostatic cold-start cable arrangement, which increases both idle speed and fuelling for a cold start. Page 96 on in my edition.
I'm assuming this is what is fitted to your XUD engine. As an experiment, you could try disconnecting this pull-cable (it's the cable that isn't the throttle/acceletator pedal one) and see whether it affects the cold start. (Idle speed could be a tad low.) Just wondering whether there might be over-fuelling when cold?
Grey-white smoke is usually associated with unburnt diesel. Clouds of white fog/vapour is typically burning antifreeze (glycol), and can smell sweet. Blue smoke is engine oil getting past valve stems or piston rings. Black smoke (soot) is normally serious over-fuelling under heavy throttle.
** If not, and you can identify the model number of the Bosch pump (it will have a label), then there are a good number of Bosch documents on the web, detailing pump working, checking and adjustment.
Could you post a photo of your pump, so we can also see the cabling that leads away from it? And its Bosch model/type number, if you can? Thanks.
Also, and maybe relevant - especially as you have had this cold-start smoke issue for some time - it details checking the action of the thermostatic cold-start cable arrangement, which increases both idle speed and fuelling for a cold start. Page 96 on in my edition.
I'm assuming this is what is fitted to your XUD engine. As an experiment, you could try disconnecting this pull-cable (it's the cable that isn't the throttle/acceletator pedal one) and see whether it affects the cold start. (Idle speed could be a tad low.) Just wondering whether there might be over-fuelling when cold?
Grey-white smoke is usually associated with unburnt diesel. Clouds of white fog/vapour is typically burning antifreeze (glycol), and can smell sweet. Blue smoke is engine oil getting past valve stems or piston rings. Black smoke (soot) is normally serious over-fuelling under heavy throttle.
** If not, and you can identify the model number of the Bosch pump (it will have a label), then there are a good number of Bosch documents on the web, detailing pump working, checking and adjustment.
Could you post a photo of your pump, so we can also see the cabling that leads away from it? And its Bosch model/type number, if you can? Thanks.
Chris
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Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start
I think regards timing, we need to know which pump is fitted first. Earlier pumps required static timing and had mechanical cold-start devices but later ones had electronic feedback timing control via a lift sensor on the injector and an electrovalve to the pump so if the timing was out, it would be out across the whole range on the mechanical ones or would show an engine light on the dash for the electronically timed pump.