Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

This is the Forum for all your Peugeot Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Hell Razor5543
Donor 2023
Posts: 13727
Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
Location: Reading
My Cars: C5 Mk2 VTX+ estate.
x 2993

Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I would test the glow plugs now you have managed to get them out. It is not uncommon for glow plugs to fail in such a way as they APPEAR to be working, but are not working correctly. It is simple to test them, but you do need to be careful, as they will get hot (so make sure the test area is clear of anything inflammable). All you need to do (apart from taking temperature related precautions) is to power them up, and see where they glow. If the glow (and they will light up) is at the tip the glow plug is working properly. However, if it is further down the element the glow plug has failed.
James
ex BX 1.9
ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR

C5 2.2HDi VTX+
Yes, I am paranoid, but am I paranoid ENOUGH?
Out amongst the stars, looking for a world of my own!
User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7445
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

Post by white exec »

Yes, that's the best test. Tip should glow orange-hot within a few seconds. Don't keep them connected for more than 10 secs, because they can be damaged if unable to shunt the heat away.
Beru have an exemplary reputation, and are regarded by many as best choice. NGK have something of a reputation for short life.

Not really possible to make resistance checks on GPs, as the resistance is extremely low.
Each GP should pull about 11-12A from a 12v source, so around 50A for the set of four.
If you have a high-rated DC ammeter handy, you can check what the GP relay is delivering to the plugs.
clip-on ammeter.jpg
There is a 75A version of this, by Sealey (available from Amazon, etc.) It simply clips on to the wire, and doesn't involve cutting it.

Even though all the GPs are in good shape, it has been known for the heavy-duty wiring to and from the GP relay to develop poor connections, so limiting the current to the GPs.
Check for good clean contact:
- Batt+ feed terminal on the GP relay
- Other end of Batt+ cable, where it joins the Batt+ block/connector
- Main output cable from relay to GP 'rail'
- Internal main relay contacts (may have become arc-damaged or oxidised)
- The GP 'rail' connections

If you can meter up the current being delivered to the GPs, and it is up to scratch, then that would give most of the above a green light.

It has, BTW, been known for PSA to skimp on the wiring between GP relay and GP rail. The size of this cable ought to be as stout (about 6mm²) as the Batt+ cable arriving at the GP relay. In some cases, twin cables of about 2.5mm² were used on the output side, but on some occasions this was reduced to one. Worth looking at, as a small cable here will noticeably reduce available power at the GPs.
___________

On the white smoke - Does this persist at all into normal driving, or is it limited to a cold engine/engine warming up? If you start the engine, and drive straight off, for how long does it smoke? Is the smoke a moderate amount, or copious clouds of fog?
Chris
User avatar
CPtje
Posts: 33
Joined: 01 Oct 2018, 15:42
Location: Netherlands
My Cars: Fiat Ducato with Peugeot 1.9TD XUD9 Bosch injection pump

Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

Post by CPtje »

Hi Chris,

The white/grey smoke is moderate and if I start the engine and drive straight off it is gone within about a minute, sometimes maybe 2 minutes when I have to stop because of traffic lights. There is virtually no smoke during normal drive after heat up. The van is not using any coolant.

Carlo
MikeT
Posts: 4809
Joined: 11 Jun 2007, 16:17
Location: Christchurch, Dorset. UK
My Cars: 2005 C5restyle 1.6HDI 16v 110hp VTR Estate
2008 C5 X7 1.6HDI VTR+ Saloon
x 231

Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

Post by MikeT »

If you've removed the glowplugs, I would just fit new ones (Beru).
If the white smoke stops, job done!
User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7445
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

Post by white exec »

That would be good.
Chris
User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7445
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

Post by white exec »

CPtje wrote: 02 Oct 2018, 13:35 The white/grey smoke is moderate and if I start the engine and drive straight off it is gone within about a minute, sometimes maybe 2 minutes when I have to stop because of traffic lights. There is virtually no smoke during normal drive after heat up. The van is not using any coolant.
That's what I was wondering. Copious white smoke - an ongoing fog when accelerator is used - is sure a sign of coolant (ethylene glycol) being burned - i.e. HG failure.

Really does point to GPs.
Might also be worth chucking 1:200 of dieselclean (Wynn's, Millers', or 3CV) into the next fill-up, which will give the injectors a remedial purge.
Chris
User avatar
CPtje
Posts: 33
Joined: 01 Oct 2018, 15:42
Location: Netherlands
My Cars: Fiat Ducato with Peugeot 1.9TD XUD9 Bosch injection pump

Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

Post by CPtje »

Oke guys,

just ordered 4 Beru glow plugs. Now just waiting for delivery, might take a couple of days.

When mounting them should I use some copper grease or better not. Cannot get a decent wrench fit to mount them so need to do it using a ringspanner (?) and tighten them on "feel"?

Carlo
Simple76
Posts: 113
Joined: 13 Sep 2018, 18:19
Location: East anglia
My Cars: Citroen Bx
x 9

Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

Post by Simple76 »

If you have gone to the trouble of taking them out I would replace them. I believe there is any time scale when they should be changed . Have you checked to see if they work?
User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7445
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

Post by white exec »

Usual to run GPs until one fails, and then replace the set. The short ones used on these engines are not expensive.
Yes to some copper grease on the new plugs.
Chris
User avatar
CPtje
Posts: 33
Joined: 01 Oct 2018, 15:42
Location: Netherlands
My Cars: Fiat Ducato with Peugeot 1.9TD XUD9 Bosch injection pump

Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

Post by CPtje »

Inserted new GP's but unfortunately no luck.

Is there something that changes the timing during cold and that might be stuck or not working properly? When warm, everything seems to be OK.

Carlo
User avatar
moizeau
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 1580
Joined: 12 Jan 2015, 16:08
Location: France 36
My Cars: 91 BX TZD Estate. Dead but loved
407 HDI 136 auto
C4 2l petrol coupé
2010 Dispatch III HDI 90
AND a 1980 Z1000ST
AND a 1983 GPz1100 inj
AND a 1995 Zephyr 1100
AND a 1980 Z650 (my moped)
x 315

Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

Post by moizeau »

Has it always done this, since you've had the camper, or is it something new? Have you cleared the water out of the fuel filter recently? (Just re-read your post Gibbo)
Pete
Notice the BX is still top the list but sadly gone
User avatar
CPtje
Posts: 33
Joined: 01 Oct 2018, 15:42
Location: Netherlands
My Cars: Fiat Ducato with Peugeot 1.9TD XUD9 Bosch injection pump

Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

Post by CPtje »

I have the camper a couple of years now, and it has always done this in some way. Because it also lost coolant I had the complete head replaced beginning of this year, including of course the timing belt and such.

Hoped this would also have solved the smoke during cold start but it did not. Because I would like to use the camper for another long long period I would like to solve this, also because it sometimes is a little embarrassing to leave others in my smoke when driving away. My garage says it is not a problem but still, would like to solve it.

Gonna check the water in the filter this week, although there is no warning light during operation.

Carlo
User avatar
moizeau
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 1580
Joined: 12 Jan 2015, 16:08
Location: France 36
My Cars: 91 BX TZD Estate. Dead but loved
407 HDI 136 auto
C4 2l petrol coupé
2010 Dispatch III HDI 90
AND a 1980 Z1000ST
AND a 1983 GPz1100 inj
AND a 1995 Zephyr 1100
AND a 1980 Z650 (my moped)
x 315

Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

Post by moizeau »

Regarding water in the diesel filter, there is a plastic drain screw on the bottom, fit a hose to the nipple on the screw, unscrew the it a little, not all the way, let a quantity of fluid drain out into a container, tighten the drain screw, repurge. Start the engine, check to see if the liquid drained smells of diesel or weak diesel.
It may also be something as simple as the pump is slightly out. Scribe a line where the pumps mounts the engine. Undo the 3 nut/bolts, (can't remember) a little so that the pump can be rotated. Do one back up. Start the engine, unscrew the re-tightened one a little and rotate the pump a few mm in both directions slowly to see if it improves. Bit like a distributor on the old petrol cars. If not, because of the pre- scribed line you can put it back to where it was before. Not scientific, but will give you an idea.
Pete
Notice the BX is still top the list but sadly gone
User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7445
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

Post by white exec »

If you have access to the Haynes manual** (#1379 is the one I have here) for the XUD 1.7/1.9 diesel engines, it details how to check and adjust timing on the Bosch pump.

Also, and maybe relevant - especially as you have had this cold-start smoke issue for some time - it details checking the action of the thermostatic cold-start cable arrangement, which increases both idle speed and fuelling for a cold start. Page 96 on in my edition.

I'm assuming this is what is fitted to your XUD engine. As an experiment, you could try disconnecting this pull-cable (it's the cable that isn't the throttle/acceletator pedal one) and see whether it affects the cold start. (Idle speed could be a tad low.) Just wondering whether there might be over-fuelling when cold?

Grey-white smoke is usually associated with unburnt diesel. Clouds of white fog/vapour is typically burning antifreeze (glycol), and can smell sweet. Blue smoke is engine oil getting past valve stems or piston rings. Black smoke (soot) is normally serious over-fuelling under heavy throttle.

** If not, and you can identify the model number of the Bosch pump (it will have a label), then there are a good number of Bosch documents on the web, detailing pump working, checking and adjustment.

Could you post a photo of your pump, so we can also see the cabling that leads away from it? And its Bosch model/type number, if you can? Thanks.
Chris
MikeT
Posts: 4809
Joined: 11 Jun 2007, 16:17
Location: Christchurch, Dorset. UK
My Cars: 2005 C5restyle 1.6HDI 16v 110hp VTR Estate
2008 C5 X7 1.6HDI VTR+ Saloon
x 231

Re: Cannot see clearly because of smoke during cold start

Post by MikeT »

I think regards timing, we need to know which pump is fitted first. Earlier pumps required static timing and had mechanical cold-start devices but later ones had electronic feedback timing control via a lift sensor on the injector and an electrovalve to the pump so if the timing was out, it would be out across the whole range on the mechanical ones or would show an engine light on the dash for the electronically timed pump.
Post Reply