C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

User avatar
darbuck
Donor 2023
Posts: 1103
Joined: 25 May 2014, 16:45
x 154

Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by darbuck »

I was thinking the wipers on the pug are similar cheaper and more plentiful so we should be able to find a way to make them work aswell. I'm going to buy a set over the summer and experiment. I will start a new thread when I do.
Darren
User avatar
KennyW
Donor 2024
Posts: 2520
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 22:22
x 132

Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by KennyW »

Darbuck,

I removed the lump with a hack saw and filed down smooth, photo's are on my last steering rack thread. I believe the lump was for older hydraulic Citroens. One of my thoughts was changing rack pinion with an earlier one ie Xantia and using these threaded ports. Of course the pinion would have to fit but I suspect they do.

Just idea for you to mull around.

Kenny
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, moved on.
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
User avatar
darbuck
Donor 2023
Posts: 1103
Joined: 25 May 2014, 16:45
x 154

Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by darbuck »

Hmmm that's interesting thanks Kenny. I will definitely have to have a look into it.we should be able to pull the pinion housing and tap it on the bench. The pinion from something else might work or might look the same but the geometry could be only slightly different and cause a significant difference. I am of the opinion we need to address this issue asap. To save as many of these cars as possible.
Darren
User avatar
MattBLancs
Donor 2024
Posts: 2835
Joined: 25 Apr 2022, 09:03
x 1498

Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by MattBLancs »

cedrichn wrote: 21 Aug 2020, 11:20 Hello,

I did read all the discussion :D And I like the way you look for solutions and root causes, and I also start to worry for my X7 :P
So I went to check which rack I have on my reg 58 2.0 petrol, and it looks like i found what the screw is for !

Image
Ah, Found it!

The redundant lump is for steering rack exhaust heat shield for 2.0 (EW10) models.

I'd think not likely fitted to the 1.6 petrol turbo model as exhaust and turbo is on front of the block (not the rear like EW10

Page 25 on this thread!
User avatar
darbuck
Donor 2023
Posts: 1103
Joined: 25 May 2014, 16:45
x 154

Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by darbuck »

Thanks Matt so it serves no purpose on our cars so cut it off and turn it down. I had a peak through the floor on mine the shaft is very corroded. So it will need a good bit of turning and then sleeved. I got under her this morning aswell to get a better look at the pipes they are not much different than brake lines so perhaps a flared fitting would work if they won't seal.
Darren
User avatar
bobins
Donor 2023
Posts: 5894
Joined: 05 Jul 2012, 18:07
x 3014

Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by bobins »

I showed a mate of mine who's an industrial refridgeration engineer the pipes and problems we have with the steering rack. He was bemused about how they ever thought the aluminium pipe and steel clamping bracket would work well together and suggested the best fix for the ongoing issues would be a belt and braces approach of all three of a thicker 'O' ring, a thin shimming washer between the pipe swage and its seat, and some hydraulic sealing gloop for good measure. Either that, or graft in a new section of pipe.
As for making up a new pipe section - he's well used to putting swages into steel and stainless pipes, but never had cause to do so on aluminium, and the 'O' ring groove would add to the job.
Adding in a new pipe section for the last 6" or so of pipe wouldn't be a problem as he said just to use hydraulic compression fittings for the join as they come in all shapes and flavours for the job in hand.
Sadly no longer a C5 owner :(
User avatar
darbuck
Donor 2023
Posts: 1103
Joined: 25 May 2014, 16:45
x 154

Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by darbuck »

Hi Bobins yeah it's a poor choice of materials, there doesn't seem to be a great knowledge of or attention to metallurgy in Citroen given the problems on the rear brakes on the mk 1 C5. You would imagine there should be some sort of quality control on this aspect, obviously not though. I will be bringing the assembly into work with me when the weather gives me a break and allows me to pull the rack. I'm an engineer and work with some very tasty fabricators and mechanical and refrigeration techs. So I should be able to develop a good solution to this with their help.
Darren
Jay-Bruce
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 522
Joined: 20 Mar 2019, 01:30
x 251

Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by Jay-Bruce »

MattBLancs wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 18:58 407 very similar suspension setup, would imagine non hydraulic X7 and 407 models largely identical.

Changing connection type, alloy pipe with O ring in groove. I know Jaybruce was considering taping a thread in this and changing connection type.

However, to my mind this isn't time well spent: and the connection doesn't leak routinely because it's a poor design, but because it is a poor choice of materials. As such I suggested a fitting be made that seals to the rack by the standard method, and then use that fitting to switch to standard hydraulic hoses and fittings (made from less vulnerable materials)

This would save the need to machine the rack or otherwise risk swarf from altering rack connections to enter the inner workings.

This would then allow the poor pipe issue to be fixed as a separate task to the corroded pinion = failed lip seal problem.

All up for debate obviously, and several answers are viable and plusses and minuses to each.



I agree the need to reverse engineer, recreate and generally improvise isn't what I expected with such a young vehicle!
I own both a 407 coupé and a hydractive X7 Tourer, from working on both of them over the years, I can confirm the back "axles" are virtually if not actually identical, right down to the grommet in the spare wheel well to get the right hand side rear strut tip bolt being present on both cars. The front knunckle/links are also uncannily similar, if not actually identical, right down to the front droplink's upper "leg" being the "crash bolt" securing the bottom of the strut to the front suspension arms/links.

I'm going to put down the cavaet that what I am about to say is based on observations taken with the Mk.I forward-looking organic-optical scanner, which was used for some mental photogrammetry and pending the veracity of data retrieved from my wet-ware data archives... That is to say I've eyeballed it and as far as I can remember, but I'd postulate that you could transplant a complete rear subframe from a 407 to a C5 X7, or vice versa. I think the front might also transplant the front end as well, as long as the top mount to strut turret interface is the same. The reason I say that is the strut turret on the body might need to be different o accommodate the peturbations from the top end of the C5's hydraulic cylinders, including the socket for the front spheres.
User avatar
darbuck
Donor 2023
Posts: 1103
Joined: 25 May 2014, 16:45
x 154

Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by darbuck »

It would appear Jay that you have answered our questions on the 407 and X7. Love the verbal acrobatics by the way 😂😂
Darren
Jay-Bruce
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 522
Joined: 20 Mar 2019, 01:30
x 251

Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by Jay-Bruce »

I'm glad you like my writing style, as I suspect we're going to be communicating quite a bit as we collaborate on engineering up remedies to ameliorate the unavailability of certain key parts, see my thread on LDS Suspension pipework to see where I'm at on another one of our problems: viewtopic.php?t=72318
User avatar
MattBLancs
Donor 2024
Posts: 2835
Joined: 25 Apr 2022, 09:03
x 1498

Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by MattBLancs »

My feeble brain stumbled over the forward facing scanners to be honest, think was diverted by the curious concept of some that weren't forward facing!

Am a little sleep deprived (too little ones full of cold germs, they are not sleeping = we are not sleeping!) So at present I have also decided that my X7 did not develop a new and interesting fault of unlocking and opening its boot and remaining like that all night, but perhaps more likely the equally tired me of yesterday pressed the middle button...
Jay-Bruce
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 522
Joined: 20 Mar 2019, 01:30
x 251

Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by Jay-Bruce »

Looking at your avatar, I suspect you're a few years younger than I am, but my age disadvantage comes with the flip side that both of my two bratlings, ahem, darling children, are both teenagers now, so I've been there, dealing with poorly kids. I hope they get well soon, and you get caught up on your sleep, and dinnae worry about overlooking my quasi-intellectual wordplay, it's a very marmite style of writing, in overcomplicated wording, I was saying I've eyeballed both 407 and C5 suspension and it's virtually, if not actually, identical.
User avatar
darbuck
Donor 2023
Posts: 1103
Joined: 25 May 2014, 16:45
x 154

Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by darbuck »

Same as mine, youngest finishing secondary school so been there and don't envy you, hope they are well soon. They're great when they're small though.
Darren
User avatar
bobins
Donor 2023
Posts: 5894
Joined: 05 Jul 2012, 18:07
x 3014

Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by bobins »

MattBLancs wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 19:49 ............ I have also decided that my X7 did not develop a new and interesting fault of unlocking and opening its boot and remaining like that all night, but perhaps more likely the equally tired me of yesterday pressed the middle button...
That rings a dim and distant bell. I'm sure I've seen a posting from someone relating to that issue at some point in the last 10 years 8-[
Sadly no longer a C5 owner :(
User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 38783
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 6061

Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by GiveMeABreak »

The C5, C6 and 407 do share similar suspension / axle parts and many components are identical.
Please Don't PM Me For Technical Help

Marc