C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by KennyW »

Mine is still dry also

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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by myglaren »

KennyW wrote: 18 Nov 2020, 13:17 Mine is still dry also

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Then wet it, dear Henry, dear Henry - WET IT!
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by KennyW »

O No I won't !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by osx »

Sloppysod wrote: 17 Nov 2020, 20:38
white exec wrote: 16 Nov 2020, 18:15 How are the boot-protected ones doing?
Haven't looked, but my drive is still dry....................but the first rack lasted 58,000 (ish) so with that in mind would not expect any issues at least until 100,000 miles.............
First one at 70k miles - now at 170k miles. Just need it to last another couple of years :)
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by Adam82 »

Hi all,
Just got a recondished rack from Lionautomotive this week.
Took the gaters off to see if spacers had been fitted for the 19’s and clocked the rack up to center 81mm, +- 1mm, each end.

When I spoke to them, I was really concerned about what oil they used when building the rack and for testing it.
They said it would be fine but, the oil coming out of the new rack is red…
Everything in me is saying not to fit it. Not even if I have to waste ££ of LDS oil to flush it…

Help...
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by GiveMeABreak »

If you are going to flush it Adam, obviously do it before fitting as you won't want to be contaminating the suspension system. I can almost guarantee they would not of been using LDS for testing given the price of it, so I would find something you can use to flush it through, dry it out as best you can and then fit it back on the car. When you've done that and bled the hydraulic system / Steering and left it for a week or so to circulate the oil, I'd consider draining the LDS and refilling it with fresh fluid.
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by jgra1 »

hi Adam, I flushed mine, was easy, just have a bowl underneath! I don't think I replaced the fluid as such, just got rid of what was in there

I suspect they put normal PS fluid in and I wasn't taking chances.

also, before fitting :
I cut the thingy off, painted the new bare metal, painted and then greased the pinion shaft with heavy grease, then used part of a track rod gaiter from the old rack as a cover.

I had my tracking done yesterday, and popped under to look - all dry so far! (its been about a month now)
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by dafydd »

I have a 2011 exclusive which has developed the dreaded steering rack leak.

After noticing a few spots of LDS on the drive, I left the car parked. Within a day, unmoved, it has turned into a major leak. There is one drop of fluid every few seconds.

The failure of the shaft seal is draining the reservoir. This is a safety critical item, particularly as there is no warning of low fluid level to the driver, and the failure can occur rapidly between services and MOT tests.

At the very least, Citroen should have protected the area from spray from the wheel arch and the shaft should have been cadmium plated. Because the shaft is in contact with aluminium parts of the rack, differential metal corrosion will be rapid, This is a failure that is potentially very dangerous and the appropriate authorities (Department of Transport?) should take it seriously, or do we have to wait until there is a serious accident as a result.

For a DIY solution, in addition to the excellent suggestions to protect the area from spray, would it be worth fitting a sacrificial anode to the shaft? This could consist of a strap of zinc, or perforated zinc, wrapped tightly round the shaft. This would hopefully corrode in preference to the steel.

As far as my car is concerned, I had arranged to take it to the nearest Citroen dealer next Wednesday, but now I will have to make other arrangements as the car is un-drivable.

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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by bobins »

I think Citroen can sidestep the need for a vehicle recall on the steering racks as the leaks aren't sudden and catastrophic leading to a loss of control. They'll be slower leading to a stiffening of the steering and therefore the driver is supposed to take appropriate action. I know that's a poor viewpoint morally, but I don't think Citroen much care for morals.
There's not a huge amount of room to play with regarding adding anodes or other protection, so a good gob of grease or similar protection is probably the easiest solution.
Curing the pinion leak is only part of the problem though. The power steering pipes that feed the rack should only really be regarded as single use, some people have managed to reuse the old ones, some not. It can be difficult to get new ones from Citroen.
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by GiveMeABreak »

David / Dafydd :?: :-D

You will get a warning once the LDS reservoir (if you have hydraulic suspension) or the Power steering reservoir (for metallic suspension) gets too low.

Depending on your model, you may have electro hydraulic steering, so powered directly by the battery but does use hydraulic fluid - this is the last system to go and you would have ample warning of a problem. Rack leaks tend to be relatively slow as if it is the pinion seal, it will start failing gradually due to deforming of the o ring seal from the rust.

Most of us who have had this happen have now got aftermarket-treated refurbished racks and have undertaken the boot modification to protect the pinion form water penetration. I've gone through 2 original Citroen racks and the second one failed after a couple of years - so there is no benefit in getting a new dealer one. They are inherently faulty / badly designed / have use poor quality steel / materials on the C5 X7- take your pick and have not improved, nor are they likely to on the X7 as it is discontinued.

Your best bet is to try and get a reconditioned and treated rack and get the boot modification on the pinion - which seems to do the job. Best of luck, but I agree 100% that Citroen should of been pulled up on this by the DOT for the sheer number of failures - it is unheard of on a particular model to have multiple rack failures 2 or 3 times for some owners!
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by dafydd »

Many thanks for the quick replies.

In the case of my car, I noticed a couple of drops of LDS on the drive. I left the car parked and within 24 hours it had dumped a large quantity of fluid, probably most of the tankful.
At a cursory investigation of the reservoir I can find no elecrical connection which would indicate a level sensor and I haven't any indication on the dash. At least in my DS days there was a level indicator tube on the outside of the tank and a float switch for a warning light!.

The failure of the seal will allow the reservoir to empty through what should be a spill return.

I am waiting for a reply from the nearest Citroen agent about collecting the car and fitting a reconditioned rack (the fluid loss is so great that I consider the car un-driveable).

I will keep posting as the saga continues.

I am tempted to make a report to DVSA, pointing out that Citroen replacement parts consumption will not reflect the true state of affairs as most failures are fixed with reconditioned racks.

At least I still have my trusty 1990 Honda CBR1000 motorcycle for transport!

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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by Paul-R »

Hi David

I don't know whereabouts in North Wales you are but you might consider using Autosteer in Chester (actually just over the border in Saltney) to recondition your rack.

My brother took the steering box from his Land Rover 110 there for reconditioning. This was all on a Saturday morning and the instructions from Phil, the owner, were to get there before midday to get it done the same day. When we arrived Phil had started work on an old unit he had in stock and said to come back in half an hour when it would be finished. We chatted for a short while and both my brother and I were impressed by the place being a "proper" engineering place.

I haven't had a problem with my X7 steering rack (yet! - touching wood) and I asked him about the rack. He was aware of the problem but didn't have an old unit for reconditioning and so would have to work on a customer's own. He said that the turnaround time would depend on how damaged the pinion was with rust as he has to send them away to be (hard chromium?) plated.

Obviously I have no first-hand experience of how good the X7 rack reconditioning is but his workshop gave me confidence. You can pay by card or cash ( :wink: ) but he doesn't offer a fitting service so you'll have take the car off the road while it's being done.

http://www.autosteerdirect.co.uk/
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Aut ... -2.9362628
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by dafydd »

@Paul-R,

Thanks for the info. It could have been useful, but the Citroen agent in Wrexham (when I was able to talk to someone in the spares department who understood what I was talking about!!!) has ordered a rack which is fitted with a double seal on the shaft. Let us hope this is more effective. It is also a fraction of the price of a Citroen original. The information however may be useful for others.

The car goes in next Wednesday - I will put some LDS in the reservoir and hope it will suffice for 14 miles.

Other thoughts on the steering rack problem.

If the return pipe had been to the top of the tank, or if there was a non-return valve in the pipe, the only fluid loss after a seal failure would have been what escapes past the internal high-pressure seals. Instead it act as a drain pipe for the reservoir!

Would it be worthwhile putting a flexible piece of sheet rubber over the hole in the wheel arch to prevent wheel spray reaching the rack? It would need to be flexible enough to allow for the movement of the track-rod and the anti-roll bar. Something like inner tube rubber might be suitable.

The saga continues!

If only they would make the original DS with a modern diesel engine! It had the best ride quality ever and maintenance was so easy.

David.
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by white exec »

Can you ask to get a photo of the new (double seal) rack, before it's fitted?
Try to get some good close-ups of the spigot and its surround.
Any identifying make/model/number, and the Citroen part number would be good to know, too.
This could be valuable information.
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by bobins »

I think you might find it's a double lip oil seal as opposed to the single lip normally fitted.

I mentioned it wayyy back in this thread (3 years ago tomorrow, actually :) )

viewtopic.php?p=578681#p578681

"I think there may be an element of 'red herring' with the double seal mod. I think it's nothing more than an R23 seal instead of an R21 seal. OK, so an R23 seal has double the seals (!) but there's only about 4-5mm between the two lips and, as you say, they'll both wear out soon enough if the shaft rusts."
Sadly no longer a C5 owner :(
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