Aisin TF-80 / AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

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white exec
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Re: Aisin AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

Post by white exec »

I ran a Vectra 1.6 Arctic with an Aisin auto box, from new to 90k miles in 3 years. A superb 'box, with smooth shifts and gear engagement, and t/c lock-up. Beautifully electronically controlled, to the point that you could even try to drop it into drive with the throttle open and engine at a couple of thousand rpm: no thud, no lurch, nothing . . . even with the accelerator pedal held, it would simply reduce engine revs to idle, engage gear, and then gently resume the revs . . . Clever! My brother-in-law has a now elderly Astra estate with the same powerplant, and just as faultless. Did I hear that Rolls-Royce used their 'boxes too?

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Re: Aisin AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

Post by xantia_v6 »

I got a bit curious about the valve body wear issue on this transmission. Here are a few links:

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Re: Aisin AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

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NewcastleFalcon wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 01:19
Reading the thread with interest. I have just ticked over to 190,000miles on my Vectra with the same Aisin 6 speed auto box. Thats 130,000 miles on the same transmission oil since a rebuild at 60,000 miles and an external oil cooler fitted. Touch wood the transmission is working as it should no complaints.

I have considered doing a transmission oil change, but I have an underlying irrational fear that the introduction of new fluid, to the 130,000 mile fluid from the communal vat unknown parentage put in at rebuild time is going to precipitate an unnecessary failure of the box, and effectively scrap the car.

Regards Neil
Ah yes I remember you mentioning it in the oil change thread a few months back. I've read a bit about the problems GM had with their oil coolers mounted in the radiator, luckily PSA don't seem to be suffering the same issue with their plate heat exchanger bolted directly to the gearbox.

Is your oil cooler connected via an external oil thermostat out of interest?

The oil cooler on my C5 is fed from the bottom of the radiator, so it doesn't see any how water to aid with warming at least until the thermostat opens so I doubt if there is any harm in running the gearbox without any additional heating from the engine.
xantia_v6 wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 09:01
I got a bit curious about the valve body wear issue on this transmission. Here are a few links:
I've read the Volvo link, very interesting stuff, especially this link showing the oil behaviour during a gear change: http://www.rostratransmission.com/aisin ... ntrols.php

So are the transmission rebuilders suggesting that there isn’t an issue with the newer ones? And that the black colour of the ATF isn't cause for concern as only antifreeze contaminated oil is damaging? If so I’d be curious to know why they are rebuilding the gearbox :lol:

As it stands I've bought the following: Oil take off sandwich plate, oil filter housing, a couple of oil filters, and as of last night a cheeky ebay offer got me a 13 row oil cooler. I still don't know what (if anything) I'm going to do yet but I've got some parts to play with at least.

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Re: Aisin AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

EDC5 wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 12:46

Is your oil cooler connected via an external oil thermostat out of interest?


I suspect not.

I think it is just a straightforward air-cooler little "radiator" for want of a bettter word with an input hose and an output hose for the transmission fluid, and connects back to the box via the connections, previously used for the feed and return from the original "cooler in the radiator" arrangement.

It sits in front of the normal radiator.

Regards Neil

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white exec
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Re: Aisin AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

Post by white exec »

There is something to be said for air-cooled (radiator-type) oil coolers, inasmuch as there's no possibility of coolant contamination of the fluid system if the oil-water heat exchanger perforates. Valeo don't have a sparkling history with these - with their aluminium ones - used on more than one engine oil system. With these, the quality and action of the anti-corrosion coolant is critical, and neglect of it can cause internal failure of the cooler. Despite being fastidious with coolant renewal, I had two of these fail on the XM 2.5. Each time, a large quantity of engine oil was rapidly injected under pressure into the cooling system.

The steel 'pancake' oil-water heat exchangers fitted to PSA engines seem to fare much better.

In the end I fitted a Setrab 19-row cooler to the 2.5, fitted ahead of the main radiator. All the bits (cooler, sandwich converter, braided hoses...) came from these folk...
https://www.thinkauto.com/acatalog/Oil-Coolers.html
who have a helpful and comprehensive website.

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Re: Aisin AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

Post by EDC5 »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 15:58
EDC5 wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 12:46

Is your oil cooler connected via an external oil thermostat out of interest?


I suspect not.

I think it is just a straightforward air-cooler little "radiator" for want of a bettter word with an input hose and an output hose for the transmission fluid, and connects back to the box via the connections, previously used for the feed and return from the original "cooler in the radiator" arrangement.

It sits in front of the normal radiator.

Regards Neil


That's interesting, I suspect that with our climate there is little chance of overcooling the gearbox oil so there is no need for a thermostat.

The fact that you've done 130k miles on the same oil is amazing, maybe the oil cooler has kept your fluid in great shape, I'm definitely warming to the idea of fitting the external oil cooler now 8-)
white exec wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 19:19
There is something to be said for air-cooled (radiator-type) oil coolers, inasmuch as there's no possibility of coolant contamination of the fluid system if the oil-water heat exchanger perforates. Valeo don't have a sparkling history with these - with their aluminium ones - used on more than one engine oil system. With these, the quality and action of the anti-corrosion coolant is critical, and neglect of it can cause internal failure of the cooler. Despite being fastidious with coolant renewal, I had two of these fail on the XM 2.5. Each time, a large quantity of engine oil was rapidly injected under pressure into the cooling system.

The steel 'pancake' oil-water heat exchangers fitted to PSA engines seem to fare much better.

In the end I fitted a Setrab 19-row cooler to the 2.5, fitted ahead of the main radiator. All the bits (cooler, sandwich converter, braided hoses...) came from these folk...
https://www.thinkauto.com/acatalog/Oil-Coolers.html
who have a helpful and comprehensive website.
That must have been a good mod, do you have any pictures of it?

The postie has been this morning and i now have a few parts:

Oil cooler:

Image

Oil filter mount:

Image

And a suitable hydraulic oil filter:

Image

I've not had a proper look at where I'm going to mount anything yet.

I'm going to have a play with the oil filter and the used oil first, to see if I'm wasting my time or not. However I'm fairly convinced of the argument for the oil cooler so far.

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Re: Aisin AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

Post by white exec »

The 2.5 engine oil cooler - pictures...
No, I don't, and most of it is well-hidden in the nooks and crannies of the engine bay.

My oil cooler (radiator type) looks very much like yours, and is fitted in the car's nosecone, low down, and immediately in front of the man rad., just behind the under-bumper air intake. I fitted a protective expanded-metal steel grille in front of it, to protect it from possible stone damage.

The sandwich plate (about 3cm thick, non-thermostat) simply went in place of the original 75mm thick Valeo oil-water heat exchanger: sandwiched between the oil filter and its spin-on mount. Water hose connections to the old heat exchanger were simple blanked off, obliging all water to pass through the radiators.

Connection between s/plate and cooler was by a pair of braided hoses, 1/2" BSP at either end. The two hoses (about 75cm apiece) were taken around the side of the radiator pair (there are two on a 2.5), through the plastic rad/fan surround, and round to the front where the cooler is.

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Re: Aisin AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

Post by EDC5 »

Ok, very good, I'll have to get the bumper off at some point and try and locate a suitable mounting point.

As mentioned earlier, by having external oil lines available you can change the fluid the way Volvo recommend which appears to use the gearbox's own oil pump to push a majority of the old fluid out of the cooler lines. Here's the procedure if anyone is interested: http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/enesd ... change.pdf

Does anyone know what sort of pressures will be involved with the fluid? As barbs and jubilee clips seem to be the accepted practice with cooler lines. I think these Mikalor clamps are probably the best of that type:

Image

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Re: Aisin AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

Post by EDC5 »

Right then, the postman has been this morning and delivered the sandwich plate.

I'm still confident that adding an inline filter will help the gearbox. As discussed previously the gearbox already has a filter, however, this is obviously not designed to be changed regularly (if at all), therefore, it is my suspicion that it is a fairly coarse filter. The addition of a second replaceable filter is at least worth a trial in my view.

As an experiment I will disassemble the filter after a few thousand miles and see if anything has become trapped in it, if not then nothing lost and if so; even better. I can always convert the setup to an external oil cooler if no additional filtration is needed.


Now, on to the new arrival. I have to say construction looks great, machined from a solid lump of what appears to be brass.

Image

Image

So, bar the hose I have most of what I need for the filtration aspect of the project:

Image

Looking on ServiceBox I have identified some possible washers and O rings that will also need replacing:

Image

Price is about £16.50 for the lot.

Image

Does anyone know if I need to change everything in that list?

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Re: Aisin TF-80 / AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

Post by wurlycorner »

Interesting project this...

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Re: Aisin TF-80 / AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

Post by Sloppysod »

Watching the post, very interesting, nice to see they have supplied a longer bolt with the sandwich plate.
Am I right, that the Volvo method is similar to the Citroen method but having making it possible to fill the gearbox from the radiator connector instead of the gearbox casing, therefore, removing the need to keep removing and refitting the air cleaner between fills.

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Re: Aisin TF-80 / AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

Post by EDC5 »

Sloppysod wrote:
03 Mar 2018, 17:03
Watching the post, very interesting, nice to see they have supplied a longer bolt with the sandwich plate.
Am I right, that the Volvo method is similar to the Citroen method but having making it possible to fill the gearbox from the radiator connector instead of the gearbox casing, therefore, removing the need to keep removing and refitting the air cleaner between fills.

Unfortunately not, the Volvo method also uses the fill port on top of the gearbox itself so you usually have to move the filter housing.

There's a good video here (albeit a bit slow) where the guy goes through the flushing procedure and fits an inline filter. It's worth a look if anyone's interested.



So the Volvo method uses the internal oil pump to push as much oil out of the system down the oil cooler lines. By refilling whenever the pump runs dry and repeating until the oil being pumped out is red (as shown in the video above).

The PSA option is to drain as much out of the bottom as possible and top it up, repeating until oil is of the correct colour.

I might try a hybrid solution where first of all the drain plug is opened to drain the bulk of the dirty oil out, then, the oil is topped out and the engine run with the external oil return hose removed until I see the first signs of fresh oil.

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Re: Aisin TF-80 / AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

Post by wurlycorner »

This lot do a mod kit you can add, to allow you to manually pump/flush through the system by the looks;
http://wtengineering.net/product_detail ... &locale=EN

Probably designed to work with their filter machine;
http://wtengineering.net/product_detail ... &locale=EN
But could presumably be made to use with another standalone external pump etc?

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Re: Aisin TF-80 / AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

Post by wurlycorner »

Actually...
They do an adapter plate specifically for the C5!
http://wtengineering.net/product_detail ... &locale=EN

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Re: Aisin TF-80 / AM6 oil, cooler and filter modification project.

Post by EDC5 »

Very interesting, I'm assuming that sandwich is just there for the drain and refill procedure and it's removed from the car afterwards?