Rough idle with clutch up.

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Titch64
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Re: Rough idle with clutch up.

Post by Titch64 »

Thanks is I will PM you the vin tomorrow
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Re: Rough idle with clutch up.

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Titch - I have your VIN and can confirm the parts are correct as per my last post - however, as you have said there is no slip and no vibration, I would forget replacing these until you have exhausted every other option. You have a hydraulic clutch fitted to this vehicle.
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Re: Rough idle with clutch up.

Post by Titch64 »

Thanks for the info. Having the car diagnosed tomorrow so hopefully get an answer what might be wrong. If it does need changing I have sourced the parts for just under 500 which is a little better the 1000. Thanks for your advice will up date the post tommo5row hopefully.
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Re: Rough idle with clutch up.

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Yes do get it diagnosed as it's a lot to fork out if it doesn't need changing. With luck it will be something simple..
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Re: Rough idle with clutch up.

Post by wurlycorner »

Thanks - I had noticed it was a 2.2 and that was what I looked up and quoted prices for...

I hadn't spotted it was an x7 though - because it wasn't originally stated (as you pointed out) - so I looked up a mk1.

As for the quality, the euro part I quoted was a LUK item - makes no difference whether it's bought from them or someone else, it's still a LUK item.

I have no time or intention to get drawn into a drawn out slanging match about who should buy what part from whom and why though, so I'll get the (-expletive removed-) out of this thread now and leave it there.
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Re: Rough idle with clutch up.

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Not an issue Iain - nothing against the brands at all and LUK are fine and used by OEM - it's just that Eurocarparts as a company have let me and several friends down on at least 5 occasions now - every single order arrived used / damaged / missing parts or was totally the wrong part. So my comments were my personal feelings concerning our dealings with them, but each to their own.
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Re: Rough idle with clutch up.

Post by Titch64 »

Just a update. Have had the car diagnosed and they do not think its the clutch. It did bring up that the cam and crank were not syncronised which indicates cam belt change. It has done 80000 and the book says change at 150000 (Seems high) so going to play safe and change it.
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Re: Rough idle with clutch up.

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Yes, or 10 years for the age-related change, although many don’t wait that long before doing it.

It will be interesting to see if that is the cause.
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Re: Rough idle with clutch up.

Post by lexi »

Does it have the chain on the other cam like the earlier models? Chains can stretch and you lose timing too.
Thought originally you had the very early 2.2 donkey...........hence my swirl valve comment on rough idle.
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Re: Rough idle with clutch up.

Post by 411514 »

Titch64 wrote: 05 Jan 2018, 10:34 the cam and crank were not syncronised which indicates cam belt change.
Am I missing something - surely this is nonsense? You would know all about it if the cam and crank were not synchronised, I understand the majority of the HDi engines will not even run, or at very least will knock like hell, if the timing belt is even one tooth out.

Most of the HDi engines have crank and cam sensors, and so in theory I guess the ECU could detect a lack of synchronisation, but as noted above my understanding is that such a lack of synchronisation would render the car undriveable.
lexi wrote: 05 Jan 2018, 12:42 Does it have the chain on the other cam like the earlier models? Chains can stretch and you lose timing too.
I think that in most set-ups of that arrangement the cam sensor is usually on the camshaft driven directly by the belt from the crank, rather than on the camshaft driven indirectly by the chain from the first cam, and so (assuming this is the set-up of the 2.2 in question) the ECU would not detect any lack of synchronisation even if the chain had stretched.

Unless I have misunderstood the situation, I would disregard the garage's advice. Being cynical I wonder if they are merely attempting to drum-up some cambelt change work. In this regard, you are correct that the Citroen specified interval for the cambelt (assuming it is the later 2.2) is 150k miles. Whilst it may be prudent to change a bit earlier, I would be very surprised if there is anything wrong with the belt at 80k. I have done belts on a number of the earlier HDi engines (for which the specificed interval is 100k) at around 80k, and they have always looked almost brand new.

FWIW, referring to the original issue reported, as well as the clutch/DMF, I might regard the injectors (or at least one) with suspicion. The issue could be with the injectors, under the specified conditions, not providing the correct fuel dosage for the (albeit relatively small) load of the redundant gearbox, that being remedied by depressing the clutch and de-coupling the gearbox.

If the problem does not manifest at cold, and if the clutch does not slip, and if it is remedied by the pumping of the clutch that you describe, in my mind that would tend to clear the clutch/flywheel of blame.

Does this engine have a VTEC style dephaser on the cam(s)?
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Re: Rough idle with clutch up.

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

If a belt or chain were to stretch (and they CAN stretch) the performance of the affected engine would suffer, but as the differences are a lot smaller than if they were a tooth out there would not necessarily be far enough out for moving parts to impact each other.
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Re: Rough idle with clutch up.

Post by 411514 »

Hell Razor5543 wrote: 05 Jan 2018, 14:09 If a belt or chain were to stretch (and they CAN stretch) the performance of the affected engine would suffer, but as the differences are a lot smaller than if they were a tooth out there would not necessarily be far enough out for moving parts to impact each other.
Perhaps, but I would be surprised if either of the belt or chain have stretched given the mileage, I doubt such stretch could be detected by the Lexia, and I can't imagine how such stretch would produce the reported symptoms which appear to be of an intermittent/transient issue.
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Re: Rough idle with clutch up.

Post by GiveMeABreak »

This is the setup on Titch's X7 2.2:
X7 22 Cam.PNG
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Re: Rough idle with clutch up.

Post by Titch64 »

Thanks for your input Sam. I will change the belt anyway as the 10 years is not that far away which is a recomendation in the book and would rather be safe than have to replace an engine, if it sorts the problem time will tell. All the other checks, fuel pressure, injectors, sensors, air flow etc were good and they ruled out clutch as well. The garage I had the inspection done phoned a specialist about the lack of readings and he confirmed strait away about timing out. He knew he wasn't going to get the job as he was doing the diagnostic for another garage so he had no self interest.
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Re: Rough idle with clutch up.

Post by 411514 »

Titch64 wrote: 05 Jan 2018, 16:31 Thanks for your input Sam. I will change the belt anyway as the 10 years is not that far away which is a recomendation in the book and would rather be safe than have to replace an engine, if it sorts the problem time will tell. All the other checks, fuel pressure, injectors, sensors, air flow etc were good and they ruled out clutch as well. The garage I had the inspection done phoned a specialist about the lack of readings and he confirmed strait away about timing out. He knew he wasn't going to get the job as he was doing the diagnostic for another garage so he had no self interest.
Please keep us informed of the resolution as I will be interested to hear.

Without wishing to unnecessarily contradict the garage as clearly they have had a better opportunity to diagnose the problem than me, intermittent/transient/apparently random problems are almost invariably electrical in origin rather than mechanical. I cannot appreciate how a mechanical problem with the clutch/DMF or timing belt would result in the temporary symptoms that you describe. If it were me before spending any money on parts I would thoroughly inspect the injectors (leak-off test/check wiring to injectors). Can a Lexia read fuel injector flowrates?

Given that it seems to be a temperature depending issue, I might also suspect coolant/oil/air intake temp sensors (any sensor that the ECU considers when calculating fuel injection).

When the car is idling roughly, you might try loading and unloading the engine in a way other than pumping the clutch, for example, switching the air con on and off. If loading and unloading the engine with the air con has the same effect as pumping the clutch, that would absolve the clutch/flywheel of blame and point towards the engine itself.
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