Mysterious injector issue - the story so far...

[RichardW]

I'm going to stick it on the computer at the weekend to adjust the handbrake cables once I have fitted the new caliper - I will check the injector correction values.

You should be able to see both requested position and reported position on the EGR valve - they should track one another closely. If they don't then it's sticking. It checks the EGR valve over the full range at engine shut down - you can hear it whirring sometimes. Ours was reporting valve stuck during programming or stuck open during driving when it was faulty. It's not as had to get out as it first appears; although getting the bolt started on the replacement clamp is a bit trying!

[Mervyn44]

I had another look at the live data reports and it shows all the EGR values adjusting to engine speed so I have to suspect it is operating. The Throttle electrovalve and valve electrovalve are moving up and down between 0 and 90%, the repeat values mirror these pretty closely too. The butterfly is static at 0 so either it is stuck or doesn't exist! Again, no EML and no codes being logged.

[Mervyn44]

I'd be keen to hear back about that injector value Richard. Just to clarify... is your car idling OK? If so then maybe this weird injector value of mine, like yours, is nothing critical and I need to look elsewhere for a solution.

Logically, If it was an ECU or wiring fault affecting one injector then I would expect a regular "miss" something akin to running on 3 cylinders. If it was the EGR or something else affecting the overall running then it might be more of an irregular/erratic idle.

The car will start first turn of the key and idle all day, it just doesn't sound smooth, you can feel the vibration coming through on the pedal... its not that severe, certainly not as bad as it was but it is still there. When the accellerator is pressed in neutral it does take on a lumpy 3 cylinder kind of feel as the engine hesitates and struggles to speed up... and then it finally finds its footing and shoots up through the rev range.

If I didn't know any better I'd say it was a fuel starvation issue where the pump was slow to meet demand and pressure in the fuel rail dropped on accelleration, but that's just me thinking out loud. Having said that, The live data shows idle fuel pressure at around 300 Bar which I think is about right, this rises to about 1600 bar at 3000 rpm if memory serves so doesn't seem bad. The fuel pressure and reference pressure graphs on the live data are pretty much identical.

When driving it is less noticable apart from the lack of power. There is just not much oomph until the revs get well up so if you want results you need to change down gears and apply the boot. If you try to gun it at low revs it just doesn't do anything, a bit like driving at 20MPH in top gear. but as I say, once the revs get up and the turbo starts kicking in then the car takes off, Its like night and day... its actually quite impressive!

[Mervyn44]

Took the car for another drive today and hooked up the Lexia/Diagbox interface when I got back, then recorded a shed load of diagnostic data. All DTC's have been cleared and none are returning so from a fault code point of view the car is fine but my problem persists. I can't help thinking that if I could post the live data reports then somebody could maybe see the problem... I just don't know enough about what values are normal and what might be suspicious... although injector No.2 remains a flatline at +6 which doesn't seem right to me.

What I'd love to know is where the Diagbox reports are stored (I can't find them on my computer unless I access them through Diagbox!) I'm thinking if I can copy the live data graphs and post them here somebody may be able to spot something?

Maybe clutching at straws here but I'm desperate for feedback as I have so much money tied up in this motor, its been sitting idle for three months now and I can't afford to pay dealer prices so that they can give me the run around and quote telephone numbers for PROBABLE or LIKELY fixes!

[RichardW]

If you can see the reports in Diagobx, then there appears to be a print screen option if you click on the arrow to the left of the Home tab.

[Mervyn44]

Many thanks again Richard, yes I've seen the print option but I'd like to like to post the actual report files or jpegs of the graphs... I'll try to take screenshots and post those.

[Mervyn44]

OK I've tried to include my live data capture below. If this works then the clues to my problem may be obvious to someone. Basically the recording starts at idle, after a few seconds the revs rise slowly to approx 3000rpm and hover there for another few seconds before dropping slowly again to idle. After another few seconds there are several quick blips of the throttle and then back to idle, this sequence can clearly be seen on the engne speed graph.

[Mervyn44]

EGR and Turbo data... a few strange readings here!

[Mervyn44]

Global test results :

Version of the copy : 3.27.01 Date and time : 2017-05-13 16:10:10

Tool information
Tool serial no. L3-AG197
Serial no. VCI 011113
Type of VCI V4.3.2
DiagBox version : 07.57

Info PDV
Code RRDI :
Company name:
Profile RA
Technician's name

Vehicle info
Type of vehicle C4 PICASSO
Vehicle Layout C4 PICASSO
VIN: VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]
BUILD CODE NUMBER / RPO
Mileage 151814
Vehicle identification
Date and time : 2017-05-13 16:10:10
Make : CITROEN
Name : C4 PICASSO
Architecture : C4 PICASSO
Automatic reading or manual entering of VIN : : AUTO
VIN : VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]
ITEM_DIAG
Date and time : 2017-05-13 16:10:30
Global test :
Date and time : 2017-05-13 16:12:15
ECUs present
BMF : Built-in Systems Interface (BSI)
Response data
R61809664058780002C96640587800501FFFF064052114799
R61B1941804800100000220212C0202
R61BA0200000000000000

State of the ECU: BSI
Reference 1 : 9664058780
Reference 2 :
Faults present : 0
ABRASR : ABS/traction control
Response data
R6180966093458000039660934580FFFFFFFF2001FFFFFF00

State of the ECU: ESP81
Reference 1 : 9660934580
Reference 2 :
Faults present : 0
AIRBAG : driver and passenger airbags
Response data
R61809646864780000E966421798008060000034046595399

State of the ECU: SAC_AUTOLIV
Reference 1 : 9664217980
Reference 2 :
Faults present : 0
AUTORADIO : Radio or radiotelephone (radio part)
Response data
R61809653789477000496646223774200000004404726369A

State of the ECU: AUTORADIO
Reference 1 : 9664622377
Reference 2 :
Faults present : 0
BSM : Engine relay unit
Response data
R618B964380218000139664055680060EFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

State of the ECU: BSM
Reference 1 : 9664055680
Reference 2 :
Faults present : 0
COMBINE : instrument panel
Response data
R61809653868980002C9664365280081C0810004056726399

State of the ECU: COMBINE
Reference 1 : 9664365280
Reference 2 :
Faults present : 0
DIRECTN : Power steering electric pump unit
Response data
R61809684252580000F9684252580060060050F01FFFFFFFF

State of the ECU: GEP
Reference 1 : 9684252580
Reference 2 :
Faults present : 0
HDC : ECU at the top of the steering column
Response data
R61809648164077000696642551770530060002405051529A

State of the ECU: VCCF
Reference 1 : 9664255177
Reference 2 :
Faults present : 0
INJ : injection/ignition
Response data
R61FE00000000032F0C070701A00701070B08FE0003A702653697

State of the ECU: EDC16C3
Reference 1 : 653697
Reference 2 :
Faults present : 0
PADDITIVATION : diesel additive adding pump
Response data
R61D79658411580

State of the ECU: PADDGO
Reference 1 : 9658411580
Reference 2 :
Faults present : 0
PORTEC : driver's door electronics
Response data
R618096824955800035968249578001040002014051985999

State of the ECU: EDPC
Reference 1 : 9682495780
Reference 2 :
Faults present : 0
PORTEP : passenger door electronics
Response data
R618096824955800035968249588001040002014051985999

State of the ECU: EDPP
Reference 1 : 9682495880
Reference 2 :
Faults present : 0
ESSUIV : windscreen wiper
Response data
R61D09654063380

State of the ECU: MOTEV
Reference 1 : 9654063380
Reference 2 :
Faults present : 0
FSE : Electric secondary brake
Response data
R61FE00000000035E050A060001C172050A06FE00000001640504

State of the ECU: FSE
Reference 1 : 640504
Reference 2 :
Faults present : 0
BOITEVIT :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
COMELBVA :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
SPNEU :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
ADDITIVATION :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
DSG :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
CORPRO :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
BECB :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
STL :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
BSR : Trailer relay unit
Response data
R618D00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

State of the ECU: BSR
Reference 1 : 0000000000
Reference 2 :
Faults present : 0
AAS :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
CLIM :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
BCD :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
AMPLHIFI :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
CHANGEURCD :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
TELEMAT :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
KML :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
DMTC :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
ALARMES :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
BDMC :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
BPL :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
CPL :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
RHF :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :
MDS :
Response data

State of the ECU: communication error
Reference 1 :
Reference 2 :
Faults present :

[Mervyn44]

I put a blanking plate on the EGR valve yesterday and replaced the fuel filter - no difference, in fact the car actually seems worse. Sounds and feels rough (knocking) under load so I'm still reluctant drive it further. Seems to idle reasonably decently now (even before doing this recent work) although the clicking noise at idle has returned... sounds like a hollow metal clacking sound, a bit like tapping on an empty paint tin. This sound is not regular so I'm assuming its nothing serious such as internal engine damage/wear. It is intermittent, kinda goes... clack, clack, clack... nothing... clack... nothing... clack, clack. sort of random! It seems to be coming from the back of the engine (toward the bulkhead) but this could be misleading, its not coming from the injectors. It is quite noticeable both in and outside the car.

I've done a continuity test on the injector wiring harness, all seems fine.

I think I've eliminated most possible causes. The strange diagnostic readings on cylinder No.2 can only be due to an ECU fault or a valve/timing/compression problem on cylinder No.2 but compression tests come back fine. I was wondering if it could be a crank/camshaft sensor issue but surely this would flag up an error code and affect all the cylinders? Are there individual magnets on the cam/crank which correspond to each cylinder? if so could one of these be damaged/displaced and therefore affect only one cylinder and confuse the ECU?

I still don't know if this weird No.2 injector data in the diagnostics is even the cause.

[christof1980]

Just one thought... check the injector pump timing? The clicking is either diesel knock or valves kissing the pistons due to bad timing. I had this once on a megane scenic dci and it was one tooth out. Have you ruled out the MAF?

[Mervyn44]

Thanks Christof but I don't think the diesel pump is timed on the 1.6 Hdi. As for the noise,it doesn't sound like engine knock although the "valve kissing" idea does sound a bit worrying... as I said though, it is not a regular rythmn, it misses a few beats then its there again, quite random.

What is the easiest way for me to check if the timing is off?

[Peter.N.]

That's correct, the timing is done electronically.

Peter

[EDC5]

Just read through this thread, sounds like a nightmare.

Did you say that injector no.2 had been replaced? If not maybe a working one from ebay could be sourced cheaply?

As to the EGR, I would try blanking it off on a strictly temporary basis during trouble shooting, to see if it is getting stuck open or leaking in some way.

Bypass butterfly solenoid valve is a thing some HDi engines have whereby the air can pass directly from the turbo output to the intake manifold without going to the intercooler.

EGR throttle electro valve is a butterfly just before the inlet manifold to help cause a partial vacuum in the inlet manifold to draw in EGR gas.

[Kiril74]

I have exactly the same problem. The same car, the same year, the same engine and the same number injector with the same value. I'm interested how will end the story of Mervyn44 and I will share the story of mine. By the way I moved the injector to another cylinder and is perfect, the problem remain on the same cylinder. The pressure is OK. I have brand new EGR, brand new flowmeter. For me is problem with the ECU but let"s see.....