Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 9806
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
x 288

Re: Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

Post by Peter.N. »

Most conversions were easy when the engine was the right way round and drove the rear wheels, I converted about 12 cars to Perkins diesel power but I don't think I would like to try it with FWD and loads of electronics and I was an electronics engineer for 50 years but I don't really understand anything that doesn't use valves now. :oops:

Peter

RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 9205
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
x 358

Re: Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

Post by RichardW »

Might be some help here:

Electric GS

or here:


sisu
Posts: 8
Joined: 20 Apr 2017, 16:19
x 1

Re: Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

Post by sisu »

white exec wrote:I think this is a crazy project, obviously not thought through as yet.

Keeping any one of the complex Citroens you mention - XM, Xantia, C5 - in full operational condition is a challenge, and requires a really good understanding of how they work, plus copious mechanical and electrical documentation. Swapping parts between these vehicles is complex enough (read this and other forums) let alone building up from scratch. As stated above, later C5 is a hazard area all of its own.

It will certainly fill your hours (and months), and the end result could be quite disappointing, unless you rethink the essential battery capacity. Small car power plant in a large and heavy vehicle is not a good recipe.

Good luck with it all.


The Nissan Leaf SL have a small PV solar panel in the spolier, this recharges the 12v battery in the engine bay. It is only 5w and it will draw from the main battery under the floor, which will reduce your range. They use this 12v system to power the radio, windows, heated seats, central locking and HVAC system for the interior, which is a heat pump like you would have in a house rather than an element and a/c compressor.They use this seperate 12v system so they can use regular Nissan parts to keep the cost down.
Having owned a Leaf for a while I know the limitations of it, the cold is one aspect that effects range as the battery is heated before you use it, there is an app for my phone that allows me to monitor the car. If the car is left for more than 7 days at below -13C unplugged then it could be an issue for the battery. So my only situation that I had to change specifically for an electric car was leaving it at the airport on business. I recharge it using the trickle charger at home some times, mostly I charge it at work and otherwise I fast charge it at the supermarket which will take 30 minutes to fill from empty. But for me this is much the same as doing a short journey in a regular car, you use more fuel until everything is up to temperature, but this is only noticeable after a week of driving as being a few miles shorter.
My interest in the C5 electric pump was its operational use, such as how long it turns on/off and its amps to have it operate efficently. My initial thought was that I could locate the pump and battery(s) in the fuel tank location, not only for space saving, but also to quieten it down. Some of you prefer the earlier Citroen system without the anti roll or electronic height lock aspect that lowers every time you park it as this bleeds to the main resivoir and allows bubbles to escape overnight. To me this is no more complex than building a dry sump or fuel tank for a car converted modern fuel injection or braking system from a newer model for disc brakes from drums to consider heat and foaming management.
The LHM fluid and the orange LDS fluid, do they have any advantages or quirks as I was hoping to use the standard 3.5mm stainless steel tubing. Would running Grey spheres be better than Green rubber spheres?

sisu
Posts: 8
Joined: 20 Apr 2017, 16:19
x 1

Re: Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

Post by sisu »

RichardW wrote:Might be some help here:

Electric GS

or here:




Thanks Richard i will email the GS guy in australia to ask about the pump

User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 19511
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 1875

Re: Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I think the point about the BHI on the newer systems like the C5, is that you need the software to control it, as it doesn't run all the time unlike the older mechanical types did. It just kicks in when commanded to do so, hence the need for the BSI and the other ECUs to talk to each other. We didn't even mention multiplexing networks that connect all these.... This newer type of pump in the BHI obviously can't be left to run constantly or it will burn out very quickly I suspect.

User avatar
Stickyfinger
Donor 2016
Posts: 10005
Joined: 28 Mar 2013, 22:05
x 732

Re: Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

Post by Stickyfinger »

Question due to me being a bit thick.

Why can the C5 pump not be controlled by a pressure switch(s) ?

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8097
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 287

Re: Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

Post by Mandrake »

white exec wrote:I think this is a crazy project, obviously not thought through as yet.
Absolutely crazy project, and I can't see it working at all. Firstly where are you going to put the batteries ? Leaf batteries are installed in the floor pan. No chance of installing them there on an SM. Stack them in the tiny boot ? :roll:

Secondly trying to fit Leaf suspension/brakes etc to an SM just isn't going to work. Even a cursory look at the design of the suspension in an SM (which has no structural points in line with the wheel to connect struts to!) would show that. It would also be a travesty to take what is possibly the best riding car ever and totally butcher it to use the mediocre suspension out of a Leaf. Terrible, terrible idea. :(

In principle I would be on-board with the idea of an EV conversion of an SM which is missing its motor and gearbox, but the suspension, brakes and steering has to stay, or it's not an SM. It's no problem at all to run the suspension and brakes on an SM from an electric pump like one from a C5, however, such a pump wouldn't have the output or ability to run continuously to power the steering. So you'd either have to ditch the Diravi steering (another travesty) or find a more powerful hydraulic pump able to run the steering. It's certainly possible but I don't think a C5 pump would do it as its not designed to run the steering.
It will certainly fill your hours (and months), and the end result could be quite disappointing, unless you rethink the essential battery capacity. Small car power plant in a large and heavy vehicle is not a good recipe.

As a matter of fact the SM is a lighter car than a Leaf! :rofl2:

Official weight of the Leaf is 1,475 to 1,535 kg, the SM is only 1460Kg in the much more common carburetor version and 1520Kg for the rare fuel injected version.

The leaf motor is only 80kW, or about 107hp which is well short of the 170bhp of the SM's V6, however the torque is significantly greater at 254Nm vs 230Nm for the SM. So in other words it would have much better acceleration at lower speeds than the original engine but would have a much lower top speed and run out of puff at motorway speeds compared to the original motor.

A proper EV conversion of the SM would be awesome, but I don't think trying to do it from the Leaf parts bin is going to work!
Last edited by Mandrake on 21 Apr 2017, 10:28, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8097
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 287

Re: Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

Post by Mandrake »

Stickyfinger wrote:Question due to me being a bit thick.

Why can the C5 pump not be controlled by a pressure switch(s) ?

The C5 pump could easily supply the brakes and suspension on an SM or any earlier Citroen, but it would not have the pumping capacity or ability to run continuously under load that the Diravi steering would require. It's designed to top up the suspension occasionally in the C5 but not power the brakes or the steering so is designed for a very intermittent duty cycle.

User avatar
Stickyfinger
Donor 2016
Posts: 10005
Joined: 28 Mar 2013, 22:05
x 732

Re: Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

Post by Stickyfinger »

Twin pumps ? or is it a max pressure restriction you would face ?

Land Rover
http://jalopnik.com/392300/all-must-bow ... suspension

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8097
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 287

Re: Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

Post by Mandrake »

Stickyfinger wrote:Twin pumps ? or is it a max pressure restriction you would face ?

Pressure is not the problem - its the same 170 bars as all other Citroen's, but the Diravi steering in the SM and CX uses a LOT of flow volume especially when you're turning the wheel a lot during parking manoeuvres.

And it comes directly from the main accumulator that also feeds suspension and brakes (no flow diverter valve or separate pump output like a Xantia) - if the accumulator sphere isn't in tip top condition the steering "lags" behind the turning that you're trying to do at slow speeds as even the factory pump can't keep up at low engine RPM without a healthy buffer from the accumulator sphere.

Opposite to conventional power steering, there is no flow consumed by the steering when you hold it at a constant angle, but there is heavy flow as soon as you turn it as it is basically a hydraulic servo. Conventional power steering flows all the time at low pressure and reduces flow and increases pressure when you turn the wheel.

Online
User avatar
Paul-R
donor 2020
Posts: 3903
Joined: 07 May 2009, 16:24
x 373

Re: Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

Post by Paul-R »

Mandrake wrote:It's certainly possible but I don't think a C5 pump would do it as its not designed to run the steering.
Mandrake wrote:It's designed to top up the suspension occasionally in the C5 but not power the brakes or the steering so is designed for a very intermittent duty cycle.

But the pump DOES supply the steering in the C5. On all of them in fact even the X7 with steel springs where the steering is the only thing it's used for. On all wet C5s the pump also supplies pressure for the suspension. The one thing that the pump doesn't do is power the brakes like the Xantia, etc does.

With that in mind what does that do to the duty cycle thought process?

User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 19511
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 1875

Re: Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Not on the C5s Paul.

The LDS tank only supplies the fluid. On the X7 as an example, the power steering is operated via a separate electro pump (several models). On the X7 there are 3 types of tanks for the LDS depending on Metal / hydraulic suspension, and either coupled or electric pumps for the power steering depending on model.

On the X7, 13, 14 & 15 are the different tanks and 16-19 are the different pumps.
X7 Pumps Tanks
X7 Pumps Tanks
On a MK II
The type is a Reducing flow power steering pump (engines EW7J4, DV6TED4 and DW12TED4), with the power steering pump being driven by the accessories drive belt. The EW10 and DE10BTED4 engines just have the Electropump type.

On the diagram below, 17 is the PS Electropump, 12 is just the LDS Fluid tank.
C5 MK II PS Pump and Circuit
C5 MK II PS Pump and Circuit

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8097
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 287

Re: Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

Post by Mandrake »

I was under the impression that on the early C5's the power steering was a standard belt driven mechanical steering pump, and the suspension was run by the electric pump, both sharing the same reservoir but otherwise separate systems ?

In which case no, the electric pump is not rated to continuously supply a power steering system. (Setting aside for the moment the fact that Diravi steering has totally different almost opposite pressure and flow demands to the conventional power steering found in a C5)

User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 19511
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 1875

Re: Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Mandrake wrote:I was under the impression that on the early C5's the power steering was a standard belt driven mechanical steering pump, and the suspension was run by the electric pump, both sharing the same reservoir but otherwise separate systems ?

In which case no, the electric pump is not rated to continuously supply a power steering system. (Setting aside for the moment the fact that Diravi steering has totally different almost opposite pressure and flow demands to the conventional power steering found in a C5)

Yes you are right Simon - that's what I was trying to say earlier - not designed for constant running.

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8097
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 287

Re: Nissan Leaf powered Citroen

Post by Mandrake »

GiveMeABreak wrote: Yes you are right Simon - that's what I was trying to say earlier - not designed for constant running.

Thanks for the confirmation - we crossed posts. :)

If the X7 has an electric pump for the power steering I wonder if that would be suitable though ? Although the pump that supplies conventional power steering us unlikely to be operating as high as 170 bars, which is what diravi needs...so still probably a bad idea.