Electric Cars:what's available?

This is the place for posts that don't fit into any other category.

Moderator: RichardW

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8240
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 347

Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Mandrake »

Is that Skoda cheaper than the entry level Zoe then ?

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 13978
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1378

Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Mandrake wrote:
20 Nov 2019, 09:56
Is that Skoda cheaper than the entry level Zoe then ?
Looks like it,
Renault.co.uk screenshot
Renault.co.uk screenshot
Cant see any reference any more to Battery Leasing being offered to bring down the purchase price on that sales page, but it still appears in another part of the site. https://www.renault.co.uk/renault-finan ... -hire.html


This article appears to point to a change of attitude on existing battery leases.

https://www.electrive.com/2018/06/27/re ... ery-lease/

Regards Neil

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8240
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 347

Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Mandrake »

Hmm...
Entry-level SE models can support charging at up to 7.2kW using a standard AC port, while a 2.3kW domestic wallbox can also be used. Models also come with air conditioning, a leather steering wheel, 14in alloy wheels, DAB radio and central locking. Using the standard AC port, a 7.2kW system will take just over four hours to deliver the same level of charge; a 2.3kW domestic wallbox will take around 12 and a half hours.
I don't know what they're talking about when they say "domestic wall box". I would normally assume that means a dedicated EV charge point like I have, however those are all rated at either 3.6kW or 7.2kW.

2.3kW would be from using the "granny" charger from a regular 3 pin socket, which I wouldn't have referred to as a "wall box". :roll:
The higher-spec SE L trim, which starts at £22,815 pre-grant (£19,315 after grant), features a Combined Charging System (CCS), allowing use of a DC fast-charger at speeds of up to 40kW. The trim also features 16in alloy wheels, ambient lighting, heated front seats, parking sensors and body-coloured mirrors.

The DC charger - and a higher-rated AC cable - will be optional on the cheaper model. Both models feature a smartphone dock built into the dashboard - as in the regular Citigo - capable of displaying some EV-specific information using the Skoad Connect app.
This lack of CCS (rapid charging) on the base model is super disappointing. [-X That makes the car useless for anyone that wants to drive out of range (of their house) or doesn't have home or work charging. It's also the only EV I've heard of being released in the last few years with this limitation.

Back in the very early days the bottom spec Leaf lacked a Chademo (rapid charge) socket, but only in the US market where Chademo chargers were thin on the ground, as far as I know all UK Leaf's have the Chademo socket, as do all Ion's/C-Zero's etc... I think the only EV that released into the UK market without a rapid charging option was the Mercedes B250e.

Pity, but they have gone a step too far on the penny pinching to meet a target price, and my advice would be a big fat "don't buy" for the poverty spec model without CCS. I wonder how many people will buy that version knowing nothing about EV's and find that the car basically isn't usable for them. Car salespeople are not renowned for knowing what they're talking about when selling EV's and even if they do I'm sure the limitation would be downplayed!

The silly thing is that removing CCS support from a car designed for it basically just means deleting the charging socket, the cable from the socket to the battery pack, and perhaps one contactor in the battery pack, all of which would add up to maybe a couple of hundred quid worth of parts!

andy5
Donor 2018
Posts: 440
Joined: 05 Nov 2010, 14:40
x 78

Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by andy5 »

You're right. Offer 3 door and lower trim level options, and include the charging kit anyway.

User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 6434
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 13:46
x 1090

Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by white exec »

Yes, a daft omission, just to get into a lower price bracket.
Might be more dealer-profitable for them to offer the CCS as "an upgrade option", for which they can charge (no pun intended) handsomely.
Rather like Nissan fitting no spare wheel to the Juke, and then wanting €600 for a 'kit' of skinny spare, brace + jack!
Maybe CCS is something canny customers might simply ask for as a condition of buying...
Others, as Simon says, will find out the hard way.

A good sign that prices are heading in the right direction, though.

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8240
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 347

Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Mandrake »

My fear is that too many people will find out the hard way that rapid charging is really not an optional feature in an EV these days, especially if it is to completely replace an ICE. It is a must have feature that I would not even consider not having and I would strongly recommend nobody buy an EV that can't rapid charge using either Chademo or CCS.

The savings in parts is minimal to essentially cripple the car. I just remembered as well that with CCS (Combined charging system) there is actually only one socket that does both the slower Level 2 AC charging and the high speed DC rapid charging, by using two extra pins on the bottom of an extended connector.

So you're not even saving money from deleting the socket, you still have to have a socket, just one with two less pins fitted! #-o

All the power electronics for rapid charging is provided by the rapid charger unit which you plug into, which delivers regulated DC directly to the battery pack via a contactor in the battery assembly. The onboard charger in the car is only responsible for the digital signalling to tell the rapid charger what to do, and you still have an onboard charger either way, so no cost savings there either.

So the only savings are (probably) one less high voltage contactor required in the battery pack, deleting 1-2 metres of high voltage cable, and using a slightly cheaper socket with two pins left out. Just not worth it and I hope there will be push back on this and/or nobody is lulled into buying the versions without CCS.

andy5
Donor 2018
Posts: 440
Joined: 05 Nov 2010, 14:40
x 78

Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by andy5 »

Given how ignorant too many sales people can be, I wouldn't be confident.

I remember meeting someone who said he was a BMW salesman, so I asked when they'd start selling diesels here.

He turned on really snobby mode and said BMW will never produce a diesel.

I said they've been selling them in other countries for years.

User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 6434
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 13:46
x 1090

Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by white exec »

Untold numbers of folk bought cars without any spare wheel, or means of dealing with a badly damaged flat. Toyota were obliged to row back on this in several sales territories. Many buyers simply insisted on inclusion of a spare, once the story broke.

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 13978
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1378

Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »


User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8240
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 347

Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Mandrake »

Battery lease was always a bad idea so I'm glad it's gone...!

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 13978
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1378

Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

A while before used Hyundai Kona electrics appear on the bargain basement electric thread, but if you have the luxury of buying what you fancy, its going to do a decent job.
Gibbo2286 wrote:
05 Dec 2019, 12:07
If I could afford an electric car I'd favour the new Hyundai Kona and at the same time add a Powerwall...……………….but my lottery numbers haven't come up …..yet.

The Kona Electric with a bit of noisy music.



Regards Neil

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8240
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 347

Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Mandrake »

Personally, after having watched and read many comparative reviews and seen chat on speakev from owners of both I'd choose the Kia e-Niro over the Hyundai Kona every time. Why ?

They're both close siblings since Hyundai and Kia each own a bit of the other (!) which have the exact same drive train (motor, 64kWh battery and drive electronics) and almost identical range and acceleration, almost the same price, but packaged in a different car.

In short, the rear leg room and boot space on the Kona is quite limited. A six footer can't sit behind another six footer in a Kona, at least not without your knees rammed hard into the seat in front of you. On the other hand in an e-Niro you'll have a good six inches of space in front of your knees at the back, and the boot is dramatically larger as well, and is considerably larger than the boot in my Xantia, while the Kona boot is quite a lot smaller!

Another thing I don't like about the Kona which is peculiar to the EV version of the Kona only is the massive, high up claustrophobia inducing floating centre console between front seat passengers with very hard to access storage space below it. I've seen nothing like it before and I don't think I could live with it. The e-Niro on the other hand has a much nicer front interior and centre console. Compare the Kona interior with its high centre console and the e-Niro:
hyundai-kona-electric-interior.jpg
kia-e-niro-5-1030x687.jpg
I actually really like the floating centre console design of the e-Niro...
14-kia-niro-ev-2019-center-console--front-row--interior--seat.jpg
That large round shuttle knob in the centre console is actually the "gear lever" which you rotate to operate! :lol: In the Kona you get non-descript grey push buttons to change between park, drive, reverse and neutral.

Gibbo2286
Donor 2020
Posts: 4864
Joined: 08 Jun 2011, 18:04
x 905

Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Gibbo2286 »

I don't think the Kona I was referring to is on the market yet.

andy5
Donor 2018
Posts: 440
Joined: 05 Nov 2010, 14:40
x 78

Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by andy5 »

Some people want an electric car that can occasionally do towing.

Very little choice. Cars that can easily tow in other versions just don't have any towing weight specified for the electric one.

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8240
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 347

Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Mandrake »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
05 Dec 2019, 13:52
I don't think the Kona I was referring to is on the market yet.
The Kona came out on the UK market late 2018. There is a minor revision out this year which adds a few features and changes spec levels slightly but it is basically the same car.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good EV and a good car and the owners of them love them. But for me the lack of rear leg room (also child seat room) and small boot is a show stopper when you can get a car that's about 15cm longer with plenty of rear leg room, a good size boot, a nicer (IMO) interior with the same range, battery, motor and performance for about the same price in the e-Niro.
andy5 wrote:
05 Dec 2019, 13:54
Some people want an electric car that can occasionally do towing.

Very little choice. Cars that can easily tow in other versions just don't have any towing weight specified for the electric one.
Yes the lack of towing options for EV's thus far is very perplexing. On paper an EV should be the perfect tow car with no clutch to burn up, full torque available from stationary, a smooth and effortless take off, regenerative braking to control the speed downhill without using friction brakes etc...

Yet there are very few that are tow rated even when the ICE versions are. I just don't get it. When they were <100 mile range you could argue that since towing can easily halve the range of a car (including ICE) due to aerodynamics the manufacturers didn't want to tow rate them because buyers would complain about the terrible range while towing...

But now you can get 250 mile range EV's I don't see how that argument holds water any longer, especially if I just want to tow a trailer to the local dump a couple of times a month not for hundreds of miles! EV drivers are starting to get a bit miffed about the stubborn reluctance of manufacturers to tow rate their EV's and what's really behind it...

Also this seems to vary by country - there are some EV's that are tow rated in parts of Europe but are not in the UK when they're the exact same car just with the steering wheel on the other side! :roll: