Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

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CitroJim
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Re: Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

Post by CitroJim »

Zelandeth wrote:
19 Oct 2018, 23:36
Does indeed! Never seen an electric Saxo in person, but have done plenty of miles in an electric 106, so I'd assume they were out there at some point.

Really liked them...our ones at work solved the thorny issue of heating with a tiny petrol burner which heated a liquid loop and a standard heater matrix. The heater in them was absolutely epic, heated up in next to no time and got to levels of hot that only Lada's, Saabs and Volvos usually manage. Tank was a gallon and used to last several months of daily use...so the environmental impact of burning a little bit of petrol for heat can't have been too massive.

I have to admit that I'd really love to find one for local duties...but remember having a look a couple of years back and decent ones seemed to change hands for way more than I could justify.



Ahh, so in 106 form they do exist then... Excellent!

One of those would possibly suit me quite well and free VED too...

I wonder how readily available they might be and how practical for occasional use such as runs to parkrun?

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white exec
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Re: Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

Post by white exec »

Could be your next thing, Jim. Quiet, electric (just thnk of all the scope for . . . scopes) and almost as locally green as cycling.

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Zelandeth
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Re: Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

Post by Zelandeth »

The ones we had at the council were good for 50 miles on a charge (I routinely managed 70 out of them once I'd mastered how to drive them efficiently and make maximum use of the regenerative braking), and were lovely things to drive around town. Max speed was limited to 55mph I think.

They'd used standard PSA switches to provide the D, N and R controls, and the spaces on the dash which would have had the oil pressure and temperature lights on the dash for the indicator lights to tell you it was "in gear" - it was a pretty well finished conversion that definitely felt like it had been well thought through.

The Berlingo apparently was also available with the same setup, probably with better range given there's more space available for batteries...

Do wonder what happened to ours, they just disappeared overnight one day never to be seen again. Replaced by an utterly unreliable string of vans and rental vehicles until we got two vans actually allocated to our department. They endured a couple of years before the C1s arrived, the experience of which led to my buying my 107 eventually.

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van ordinaire
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Re: Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

Post by van ordinaire »

Passed a Tesla on the M25 last night, just thought I'd share my bemusement that I can't really explain.

Since when have the successors to London Transport had any interest in passenger comfort?

While I don't doubt that electric buses make a significant difference to air quality where they operate, building buses in China cannot be environmentally sound, especially as they now have to be replaced so frequently.

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white exec
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Re: Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

Post by white exec »

van ordinaire wrote:
20 Oct 2018, 20:11
While I don't doubt that electric buses make a significant difference to air quality where they operate, building buses in China cannot be environmentally sound, especially as they now have to be replaced so frequently.
London buses have for some time had very long lives on London streets - some for decades. No reason to think that the electric buses - quoted as €380,000 for a BYD single-decker (€100k more than a diesel equivalent) - will be any different. Power units will simply get updated, as needed.

And than goodness China is doing this, because no-one else really is. UK could be, but we're not.

In the big picture, the numbers of buses being shipped from China is (literally) a drop in the ocean in comparison to the huge volume of goods shipped from the far East. At least they arrive by sea, which is one of the more environmentally efficient shipping options.

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van ordinaire
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Re: Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

Post by van ordinaire »

Previously London buses WERE designed to be endlessly rebuilt & might stay in service for 40 years, I doubt any post-RM designs, bought in, off the shelf lasted a fraction of the time;now, according to something I read only last week, the entire fleet will have been replaced in, I think, 12 years.

Can't agree with you about buying buses from China, never mind the shipping - it's building the things in the first place (especially in China) that damages the environment, whether they run on diesel, electricity, hydrogen - or thin air! In the big picture, the health of a few 1,000 Londoners is of no consequence whatever. Still it's good to know that when we finally destroy the planet those still living & working in London (& a few other major cities) will be healthier than they would have been.

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Re: Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

Post by CitroJim »

van ordinaire wrote:
21 Oct 2018, 23:21
Can't agree with you about buying buses from China, never mind the shipping


Shipping is a big problem too... The bunker fuel they burn is very dirty and polluting... Not only CO2 but sulphur dioxide and other untold nasties :twisted:

In my view, all heavy stuff like buses and trains and the like should be built locally here in the UK to both avoid shipping pollution and to provide gainful employment for a good few here at home...

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white exec
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Re: Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

Post by white exec »

Oh that that actually was to happen!

RM's may have been famously serviced directly (and largely designed) by LT, but they were 'bought in' too, from AEC, Leyland, MCW - albeit from within the UK.

In the case of serviceable single- and double-decker electric buses suitable for London streets, the Chinese simply got there first, as a result of urgently having to address their own urban pollution problem. The blame for not having a British product available lies with Britain, not elsewhere.

I think your dismissal of "the health of a few 1,000 Londoners" as "of no consequence whatsoever" is regrettable, and certainly not supported by health experts.

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van ordinaire
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Re: Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

Post by van ordinaire »

My concern is not so much where these buses are built but they are built at all, to replace perfectly serviceable buses, to the detriment of the environment because clean air is a vote catcher. When WILL people realise that the greatest ecological impact a vehicle makes during its life is making it in the first place - & the shorter that life is, the greater the real cost is of the manufacture.

As for ascribing some philanthropic motive to the Chinese being first, I think that's naive in the extreme. They have been shown to have as much interest in the environment as they do human rights - or health & safety; that was how they were able to move so fast - simply to exploit a situation!

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white exec
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Re: Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

Post by white exec »

Sorry, Van, but most of that is just tosh.
You really do need to read up (and see the visual evidence) about air quality in both industrial cities in China, and in central London.

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Re: Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

Post by RichardW »

Saw a Tesla S on a 68 plate tonight - first 68 EV.

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Re: Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

Post by Mandrake »

van ordinaire wrote:
22 Oct 2018, 20:28
My concern is not so much where these buses are built but they are built at all, to replace perfectly serviceable buses, to the detriment of the environment because clean air is a vote catcher.
So the air isn't part of the environment ? :wink:

Take a holiday in Beijing in China and see for yourself. Don't forget to take a face mask with you though, otherwise you'll be the only one there not wearing one during peak smog times of the day. :lol:

Here's an example of a smoggy Beijing day:



If a bus is belching out visible clouds of diesel soot, as most of the buses around here do, they're anything but perfectly serviceable in my opinion. I've always hated the smell of diesel fumes, the sooner they go the better as far as I'm concerned. It boggles my mind that the MOT man is cracking down on visible smoke from diesel cars yet diesel buses seem to get a free pass to belch out all this crap... [-X
When WILL people realise that the greatest ecological impact a vehicle makes during its life is making it in the first place - & the shorter that life is, the greater the real cost is of the manufacture.
And ? Manufacturing internal combustion engine cars has just as much environmental impact at a raw materials level as manufacturing an EV. You don't think all that platinum etc in a catalytic converter just falls out of the sky into the factory ? :)

Platinum and other metals in a catalytic converter are exceptionally expensive and rare, yet still find their way into the exhaust system of every ICE car on the road today, and generally just end up in the scrap yard when the exhaust system or car is scrapped.

Then you have the ongoing environmental impact of pumping oil out of the ground, shipping it, refining it, shipping it again (all very energy intensive processes) and then finally burning it, releasing by products into the atmosphere.

A battery in an EV might only last say 10 years, but the battery can be recycled for raw materials to make new batteries and the rest of the car should still be working well by that age and amenable to a re-manufactured battery. I don't see anyone trying to collect and recycle the fumes from an ICE vehicle, and try to convert them back into oil to pump back under the ground... :wink:
As for ascribing some philanthropic motive to the Chinese being first, I think that's naive in the extreme. They have been shown to have as much interest in the environment as they do human rights - or health & safety; that was how they were able to move so fast - simply to exploit a situation!

The Chinese aren't philanthropic - they are switching to EV's in mass for reasons of self interest - because they have one of the worlds worst pollution problems. They also see an opportunity to get in ahead of the EV game while US/European car makers drag their heels, and would rather manufacture EV's locally than import them from other countries.

If you're upset at the UK buying Chinese made Electric buses maybe persuade your local representative that we should be making electric buses of our own, within the UK... :twisted:

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Re: Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

Post by Gibbo2286 »

You may have seen today that Dyson is to design his electric vehicles here in the UK but build them in Singapore where he has access to the Far East markets, China especially.

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Re: Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
23 Oct 2018, 12:23
You may have seen today that Dyson is to design his electric vehicles here in the UK but build them in Singapore where he has access to the Far East markets, China especially.

Yes I heard that on the radio Gibbo and the reasons trotted out were
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45950377
Dyson said the decision was based on the availability of engineering talent, regional supply chains and proximity to some key target markets.
Generated quite a stir of comments. Not a great surprise as Dyson, if the wisdom of the commenters is to be believed, do not manufacture any of their products in the UK.

Nothing that another great British Indian Car manufacturer JLR aren't doing with the Jaguar I-Pace. China's auto market dwarfs the rest of the world. (Audi sell twice as many cars in China as they do in Germany)


Regards Neil

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van ordinaire
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Re: Electric Vehicles: What have you spotted?

Post by van ordinaire »

Sorry folks but you're all completely missing my points. Obviously, as I have the misfortune to spend most of time in London I know that major cities have air quality issues [but it's nothing new Tom Lehrer's "Polution" (c1963) contains the lines "If you visit American city, you will find it very pretty, but two things of which you must beware - don't drink the water & don't breath the air"] BUT it is only a small part of a much bigger environmental issue which will be exacerbated by most of the clean air measures, e.g. all that electricity has to be generated somewhere (itself not a particularly "green" industry) but that's OK because, generally, power stations aren't in cities.

The fact that a bus needs a good service, or even a major re-build, doesn't mean it's unserviceable. Yes buses cause more pollution than cars (but perhaps not in passenger/miles terms) but why take on the bus companies (or the road transport lobby - or train operators, air-lines, shipowners et al) when it's so much easier - AND lucrative - to target motorist?

EV's are, undoubtedly, better for their operating environment but at a disproportionate cost to the environment as a whole, because the damage has been done in building them & the demand for them is entirely artificial, so over a given period of time more vehicles are built than would be otherwise AND more older vehicles are discarded prematurely.

Oh, good to learn that EV batteries can now be recycled; last I heard no thought had been given to their lawful disposal. Of course it does depend on whether they can be economically removed from the vehicle & I was told by a garage owner (which suggests some knowledge but does not guarantee veracity) that in a lot of case the extent of dismantling required means the car is beyond economic repair - a scary thought!

Fortunately, however, clean air is no longer the hot potato it was, the meeja now is only interested in plastic & the politicians are bound to follow because, while they may pay lip service to environmental concerns - they just want to be (re-)elected!