Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black Xantia, pug 206HDi, Daniel's 206 Verve 1.4i, GTi180 plus XUD9TE 206!!

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

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Zelandeth
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Re: Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black & White Xantiae... & a 206

Post by Zelandeth »

Have had that on a Cummins L10 once. Ran perfect under load but smoked horribly and had a definite miss on a cylinder (no 5 if I remember rightly) at idle.

Do remember it was a pump fault in that case - I never found exactly what as we had a known good spare pump (had just been reconditioned and fitted when someone drove into the vehicle it was on and wrote it off), and as we had most of the engine bay apart it just made sense to save further trouble down the road. That pump got thrown onto the "maybe look at later" pile.

My money's on there being a ball and spring type pressure regulator/bleed valve involved that's broken a spring or suffered physical damage to the ball/seat. Not a bad idea to do a compression test, but the fact that you've got vastly different fuel delivery on that cylinder says pump problem to me...

Again, disclaimer: most of my diesel fiddling has been with Cummins L10, Gardner 6LW/LXs and the occasional Bedford 500 or Leyland O.680 thrown in to keep me on my toes...so I could be missing something silly!

ekjdm14
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Re: Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black & White Xantiae... & a 206

Post by ekjdm14 »

MikeT wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 20:30
Is it possible dirt has got inside the pump and found it's way into blocking one of the distributor ports? Maybe worth undoing no2, dismantling, clean then re-assemble?


That is a distinct possibility, I will certainly be removing and cleaning as far as possible before swapping the pump, but having now acquired a believed-good pump and injectors from the rusty TD break it makes good sense to my mind (in the absence of a compression tester suitable at the moment) to swap the pump if cleaning/checking it out throws up nothing obvious.

Now I've had a sit down and really absorbed the events today, I am 99% it's a pump issue not compression since at one point (after swapping the "new" injector for an "old" one) it did briefly start and idle smoothly on all 4 with no trace of smoke before settling back down to it's narrowboat-esque chugging. Bent/burned valves or knackered bores don't randomly seal for 15 seconds and then fail again. Something HAS to be sticking/dirty in that pump IMO :)

Zel, I don't think you're missing anything there & in fact having heard of another instance where this kind of issue was the pump is reassuring since I couldn't bring myself to fully accept something as unusual despite how much the evidence is pointing to it.

Job for tomorrow if weather and body play nicely.

MikeT
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Re: Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black & White Xantiae... & a 206

Post by MikeT »

ekjdm14 wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 20:55
MikeT wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 20:30
Is it possible dirt has got inside the pump and found it's way into blocking one of the distributor ports? Maybe worth undoing no2, dismantling, clean then re-assemble?


That is a distinct possibility, I will certainly be removing and cleaning as far as possible before swapping the pump, but having now acquired a believed-good pump and injectors from the rusty TD break it makes good sense to my mind (in the absence of a compression tester suitable at the moment) to swap the pump if cleaning/checking it out throws up nothing obvious.

Now I've had a sit down and really absorbed the events today, I am 99% it's a pump issue not compression since at one point (after swapping the "new" injector for an "old" one) it did briefly start and idle smoothly on all 4 with no trace of smoke before settling back down to it's narrowboat-esque chugging. Bent/burned valves or knackered bores don't randomly seal for 15 seconds and then fail again. Something HAS to be sticking/dirty in that pump IMO :)

Zel, I don't think you're missing anything there & in fact having heard of another instance where this kind of issue was the pump is reassuring since I couldn't bring myself to fully accept something as unusual despite how much the evidence is pointing to it.

Job for tomorrow if weather and body play nicely.


I can't recall if you've been there already but if it will help, here's one (1.9TD) I removed earlier....
53400074.JPG
(Click to enlarge)

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CitroJim
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Re: Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black & White Xantiae... & a 206

Post by CitroJim »

Dan, your thoughts are good as all four ports on the pump should spray equally and if one is noticeably down then that's not right..
MikeT wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 20:30
Is it possible dirt has got inside the pump and found it's way into blocking one of the distributor ports? Maybe worth undoing no2, dismantling, clean then re-assemble?


Yes, it is but more likely it's a bit of dirt in the delivery valve on the pump distributor head... Dan, these are easy to remove in-situ but take care that you don't loose the spring, copper sealing washer and pre-load shims.

With the delivery valve out, swing the engine over to allow some diesel to flow out of the now valveless port to flush any potential muck out.

I've seen the delivery valves well gummed up in the past, especially if the engine has run on veg in the past and has then sat around with old veg slowly going rancid in the pump...

ekjdm14
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Re: Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black & White Xantiae... & a 206

Post by ekjdm14 »

Thanks all for the advice, just got back from a final vet appointment (cat is mended, and no urinating Xantiae on the way home this time either!) and after a brew will pop out and see if I can't get the old girl ticking smoothly on all 4 this time.

Don't think she's ever been run on veg, but the glow plugs are recent and I suppose it's possible some dirt got introduced then if the pipe from filter to pump was moved out of the way. Must check/change the fuel filter actually, i have a genuine one sat here as a spare for Black but really ought to change White's as I don't even know if it might be one of the old disintegrating ones slipped through the net as old stock now I think of it... Silly Dan ought to have at least lifted the filter lid before now when suspecting fuelling problems!!!

MikeT
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Re: Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black & White Xantiae... & a 206

Post by MikeT »

CitroJim wrote:
08 Sep 2017, 08:13
Dan, your thoughts are good as all four ports on the pump should spray equally and if one is noticeably down then that's not right..
MikeT wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 20:30
Is it possible dirt has got inside the pump and found it's way into blocking one of the distributor ports? Maybe worth undoing no2, dismantling, clean then re-assemble?


Yes, it is but more likely it's a bit of dirt in the delivery valve on the pump distributor head...


That's the part I meant Jim, just forgot it's correct name, hence posted a pic.

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Re: Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black & White Xantiae... & a 206

Post by MikeT »

MikeT wrote:
08 Sep 2017, 17:55
CitroJim wrote:
08 Sep 2017, 08:13
Dan, your thoughts are good as all four ports on the pump should spray equally and if one is noticeably down then that's not right..
MikeT wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 20:30
Is it possible dirt has got inside the pump and found it's way into blocking one of the distributor ports? Maybe worth undoing no2, dismantling, clean then re-assemble?


Yes, it is but more likely it's a bit of dirt in the delivery valve on the pump distributor head...


You're quite right, Jim, that's the part I meant, just forgot it's correct name, hence posted a pic.

ekjdm14
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Re: Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black & White Xantiae... & a 206

Post by ekjdm14 »

Ugh traffic around Sandbach/Holmes Chapel and surrounding areas is utterly stuffed, just got back in and there has (from what I'm told) been an accident involving 2 lorries on the M6 resulting in everyone trying to jump off at Sandbach and skirt round the trouble... On a Friday at teatime, the results are pretty inevitably near gridlock in SE Cheshire... Head is quite achy now and I'm tired.

However i did manage earlier to remove and clean the delivery valves which made no difference to running, then swapped #2 for one off the spare pump. The very slightest of improvements but not a lot, it's now i would say idling more time on 4 than 3 cylinders but if you give it a few revs it still smokes like a train and the idle becomes lumpy for a time afterward (more 3 than 4 cylinders for a few seconds at least).

Only option to my mind now (other than spending money on a compression tester) is to fit the spare pump, with it's own #2 delivery valve back in and see if that changes things... I'll be surprised and disappointed if it doesn't, but then i was surprised and disappointed when a set of injectors didn't cure it and again when cleaning/swapping assorted delivery pipes/valves over didn't either.

Will hope to get a bit of time on this over the weekend but pretty soon i need to have a look over Black and make sure she's ready for a trip to Wales soon.

Thanks again folks for all the suggestions and advice, not sure if i could be missing anything else fuel-wise now that'd cause an intermittent miss on one specific cylinder?

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CitroJim
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Re: Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black & White Xantiae... & a 206

Post by CitroJim »

Dan, before going for a pump swap I'd look to do a compression test just to rule out any piston/valve problems.

ekjdm14
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Re: Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black & White Xantiae... & a 206

Post by ekjdm14 »

As would I have done, Jim, but I don't currently have a suitable compression tester to my name. Anyway, pump swapped this afternoon (my, isn't that bottom nut a pain on cars with air-con?) and the good news is.... We seem to have 2 good Bosch pumps! :(

So, looks like we are probably down on compression on at least #2 cylinder. Still cost less than a diesel compression tester to find that out though I suppose, next trick is to make an airline adaptor from an old glow plug and try to ascertain whether the leakage is from the bottom or top.

Fingers crossed it's just a valve or maybe even the head gasket, but will find out in due course. Ah well, can't win 'em all. Whatever the result I know where there should be a decent TD lump for not much cash.

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Re: Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black & White Xantiae... & a 206

Post by elma »

Compression testers are peanuts Dan. There's a kit here for example.

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CitroJim
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Re: Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black & White Xantiae... & a 206

Post by CitroJim »

Dan, that's a shame after all that hard work :(

You have checked the valve clearances haven't you?

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Re: Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black & White Xantiae... & a 206

Post by ekjdm14 »

elma wrote:
10 Sep 2017, 17:51
Compression testers are peanuts Dan. There's a kit here for example.


That's not half bad for what you get, might add it to my Christmas list haha. For now though I've arrived at the same conclusion as buying one of these, albeit for a bit of extra time/effort and for £10 less BUT I do also have a spare pump/injectors and pipework into the bargain.

Jim, I have checked the clearances yes. One (#1 inlet IIRC) was a bit tight but putting that right made no odds either. I'm a little disappointed but not too bad, will get her sorted in the end whatever it turns out to be. The bodyshell is just too nice to let mechanical woes put her down. :)

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CitroJim
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Re: Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black & White Xantiae... & a 206

Post by CitroJim »

Indeed, a good body is worth its weight in gold Dan and mechanical issues are a heck of a lot easier to fix ;)

ekjdm14
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Re: Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black & White Xantiae... & a 206

Post by ekjdm14 »

Even if it takes another engine swap, I'm at least equipped for such a thing now and I'd much prefer that option to a weldathon.

One last thing I'll do before I get 100% convinced the compression is down, I'll faff about with the timing a little and see if the pump may be a tooth off. Actually, I have already advanced (EDIT-: retarded? top of pump toward radiator anyway) the timing a couple of degrees and it's got noticeably worse, much more grey smoke and lumpier than school gravy. So when the rain next abates I'll swing it the other way and see what happens then. Who knows, I might even do the sensible thing and try the timing pins in for size just to be triple sure...
Last edited by ekjdm14 on 11 Sep 2017, 14:49, edited 1 time in total.