Tales from beyond the grave AKA Dan & Emma's Black Xantia, pug 206HDi, Daniel's 206 Verve 1.4i, GTi180 plus XUD9TE 206!!

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

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CitroJim
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Re: Black Xantia NA Diesel auto... Camshaft failure... Le moteur est mort...

Post by CitroJim »

The difference is in the pistons and gaskets... All XUD heads are flat and more or less interchangeable to a greater or lesser extent...

TD pistons are very different to NA pistons in that they are heavier and stronger around the crown.

When doing a head you choose the gasket thickness based on piston protrusion - unless you use a thick universal 'repair' gasket which has the effect of lowering the CR a tad.

The BoL covers it all pretty well.. As they do shimming the tappets..

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Re: Black Xantia NA Diesel auto... Camshaft failure... Le moteur est mort...

Post by ekjdm14 »

Yes, I found the BoL pretty good as regards the procedures I'm into at the moment. Ours is currently a 2 notch gasket but based on what I see in the light of this morning that could/will change if I save the engine...

Basically, from the witness marks in the pistons it is apparent that the engine has previously suffered either a tensioner failure or a jumped tooth since all 4 inlets have made contact repeatedly (judging by the depth of the marks) and some time ago (judging by the ingrained carbon in the marks).

So my *newest* theory/guess is that the engine went enough out of time in the past for it still to run, but all the inlets to hit the pistons repeatedly.

This was then corrected, probably before the car was sold to the previous owner, who then unfortunately reaped the "rewards" of this previous failure in the #1 con rod failing suddenly. (I said #4 last night, but its the gearbox end thus #1 that has gone).

Soooo, my current thinking is that IF the block and crank are salvageable, I'll be replacing all 4 pistons/rods since I wouldn't fancy trusting the remaining 3 considering the havoc wreaked by the dead 'un.

Oh, And just a quick apology to Budge (seller), in that I didn't mean to cast aspersions on his character/honesty in my previous postings Re: porkies. Just with such a strange failure I initially found it hard to think how it could end up so badly broken without making it's poor health known prior to death. From what I'm finding at the moment it would appear that he was just the innocent (and damn unlucky) witness to the final death of an engine "murdered" a long time previously...

Makes ya think though, how many of us are running round in XUD powered cars that have "survived" previous cambelt failure blissfully unaware that their bullet-proof bottom end may in fact be on borrowed time?

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Re: Black Xantia NA Diesel auto... Camshaft failure... Le moteur est mort...

Post by CitroJim »

ekjdm14 wrote: Makes ya think though, how many of us are running round in XUD powered cars that have "survived" previous cambelt failure blissfully unaware that their bullet-proof bottom end may in fact be on borrowed time?
yes, quite and sobering. Doubtless repeated thumps against the valves that's enough to break or crack the cam is certainly going to strain the rods...

The engine I spoke of earlier that suffered delayed cam failure had only light witness marks on the piston crowns... That was a one kiss event... Looks like yours went in for some serious snogging :lol:

Remember an NA has a higher CR and to achieve that the space between the top of the head at TDC and the piston crown is even less than that of a TD and any calamities are going to have potentially worse consequences as a result...

I'd now be worried about the crank life so I'd go for a complete engine swap to be honest...

My middle name is 'Cautious' in these kinds of matters... My other one might be 'Paranoid' :lol:

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Re: Black Xantia NA Diesel auto... Camshaft failure... Le moteur est mort...

Post by RichardW »

Not really relevant to the job in hand, but a couple of interesting notes about valve failure...

1. My Sister's friend's Dad was a keen cyclist(*) and engineer (he was trying to develop a rotating valve for engines) - we visited his house when I was 18, and he had a piston there from an engine which had dropped a valve - this had managed to rotate in the bore, and was then neatly punched through the piston, sitting flush with the crown, and the stem visible underneath!

2. There was a chap where I used to work who raced motorbikes - 600cc IIRC. We used to call him coffin dodger as he was really pale, and white haried; not seemingly the sort to race bikes, but he did! He'd managed to drop the bike, but picked it up and got going, then a few laps later it too dropped a valve. This initially stayed in the guide and stamped a mark on the piston crown, but then broke off, stamping rounds all over the crown, before rotating, and then cutting slots all over the crown with the edge of itself. It was a right mess - as was the head reportedly!!

* he had an amazing collection of bikes, including recumbant and Penny Farthings. I had a go, but managed to fall off the P-F - it's not as easy to get off as it looks; and it's a long way down!!

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CitroJim
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Re: Black Xantia NA Diesel auto... Camshaft failure... Le moteur est mort...

Post by CitroJim »

Magic stuff Richard :) I love your recollections; always interesting :D

The only experience I've had is a wrecked Saxo TU engine with holes neatly punched in each piston crown from detonation/pre-ignition from running a very weak mixture...

I'd have loved to have seen his collection of bikes ;)

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Re: Black Xantia NA Diesel auto... Camshaft failure... Le moteur est mort...

Post by Budge_60 »

ekjdm14 wrote:Yes, I found the BoL pretty good as regards the procedures I'm into at the moment. Ours is currently a 2 notch gasket but based on what I see in the light of this morning that could/will change if I save the engine...

Basically, from the witness marks in the pistons it is apparent that the engine has previously suffered either a tensioner failure or a jumped tooth since all 4 inlets have made contact repeatedly (judging by the depth of the marks) and some time ago (judging by the ingrained carbon in the marks).

So my *newest* theory/guess is that the engine went enough out of time in the past for it still to run, but all the inlets to hit the pistons repeatedly.

This was then corrected, probably before the car was sold to the previous owner, who then unfortunately reaped the "rewards" of this previous failure in the #1 con rod failing suddenly. (I said #4 last night, but its the gearbox end thus #1 that has gone).

Soooo, my current thinking is that IF the block and crank are salvageable, I'll be replacing all 4 pistons/rods since I wouldn't fancy trusting the remaining 3 considering the havoc wreaked by the dead 'un.

Oh, And just a quick apology to Budge (seller), in that I didn't mean to cast aspersions on his character/honesty in my previous postings Re: porkies. Just with such a strange failure I initially found it hard to think how it could end up so badly broken without making it's poor health known prior to death. From what I'm finding at the moment it would appear that he was just the innocent (and damn unlucky) witness to the final death of an engine "murdered" a long time previously...

Makes ya think though, how many of us are running round in XUD powered cars that have "survived" previous cambelt failure blissfully unaware that their bullet-proof bottom end may in fact be on borrowed time?
Thank you for the apology, its much appreciated, as I was totally unaware - the previous owner to me never mentioned anything to me about a previous timing belt failure. Its sad for me as its previous owner to hear that its as bad as it is - I was gutted when it broke! I covered approx 4000-5000 miles in the car in my ownership. I'm sure / hoping it can be saved in your capable hands - hence the advert on this enthusiasts forum!

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Re: Black Xantia NA Diesel auto... Camshaft failure... Le moteur est mort...

Post by ekjdm14 »

CitroJim wrote:....That was a one kiss event... Looks like yours went in for some serious snogging :lol:

Remember an NA has a higher CR and to achieve that the space between the top of the head at TDC and the piston crown is even less than that of a TD and any calamities are going to have potentially worse consequences as a result...

I'd now be worried about the crank life so I'd go for a complete engine swap to be honest...

My middle name is 'Cautious' in these kinds of matters... My other one might be 'Paranoid' :lol:

Haha, just a shame they didn't use some kind of protection. I'm half expecting to find little baby pistons in the sump now! :rofl2:

Yes that's a good point about the NA having less leeway in an "out of time" event, I am still rather shocked though to see a bottom end failure on a 97k XUD with oil in it.

Yes, I am kinda worried for the crank too but if the journals are OK I may chance it depending if I can find pistons/rods at the right price... I don't even know exactly what has failed down below yet so I should reserve judgement till I know. (If it's a shed piston crown or sheared gudgeon pin with no bore damage I'll call it a lucky escape & plan to get this motor running again, but also then locate another NA to refresh as a spare).

As you may have guessed, my middle name is 'optimism' in these matters haha [-o< (secondary one being 'hasty'? time will tell)
I'll try and work out how to get photos off the missus' phone shortly and get those up.

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Re: Black Xantia NA Diesel auto... Camshaft failure... Le moteur est mort...

Post by ekjdm14 »

Well, I got the pics uploading hopefully. Not sure what, if any, sort of order they'll be in but basically the shots of the block and underside of the head were from Saturday evening & the ones of the cam bearings and caps are from earlier on today...

Just to clarify, this head is now scrap in everyone's opinion? Oil pressure would likely be rubbish even if I were to clean up the gouging? (I think bits of smashed cam have worked their way round and "machined" their way into both bearings and camshaft... Sound feasible?) And any other reason #1 and #2 would be eaten like this yet #3 be perfect? :?
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Re: Black Xantia NA Diesel auto... Camshaft failure... Le moteur est mort...

Post by ekjdm14 »

You can see on the block pics, the nasty marks in the pistons left by the INLET valves. Also please note the condition of said inlet valves on the head, they've not hit the pistons any time recently I would say?

Overall the engine looks to be in good as new condition save for the gouges in the head and the damage down below, more's the shame as it really was a sweet engine by the look of things :(

One other anomaly I can't fathom yet, my initial worries about a bent/dropped inlet valve on #1 (the lifter seemed to sit 1mm+ lower than the rest) seem to have been unfounded since the valves are all sat nicely and sealed when I blow down the inlet so why would it seem to have a HUGE clearance compared to the rest? could the piston have hit that hard that the valve has just completely "mushroomed" inside the guide in some way, or could it be a replacement valve different to the rest? Picked up my valve spring compressor today anyway so will look into that at some point, just after ideas really... Enjoy the carnage, more to follow (of that I'm sure)

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Re: Black Xantia NA Diesel auto... Camshaft? No, conrod failure... Le moteur est mort...

Post by myglaren »

The way the piston on the left of the photo's is way down the bore all on it's own looks quite disastrous to me.

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Re: Black Xantia NA Diesel auto... Camshaft? No, conrod failure... Le moteur est mort...

Post by RichardW »

The one on the left is OK, it's the one on right that's at the top when it's not supposed to be, and has rotated 15deg to left that is looking sick!!

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Re: Black Xantia NA Diesel auto... Camshaft? No, conrod failure... Le moteur est mort...

Post by myglaren »

Of course - silly me :oops:

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Re: Black Xantia NA Diesel auto... Camshaft? No, conrod failure... Le moteur est mort...

Post by CitroJim »

Oh my goodness yes, definitely big bottom end issues there...

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Re: Black Xantia NA Diesel auto... Camshaft? No, conrod failure... Le moteur est mort...

Post by CitroJim »

You know, having read this and then gone for a run - a great time for thinking things through ;) - I have a belief the bottom end may have let go first and the cam breaking was a result and not a cause...

Can't wait to see what removal of the sump reveals ;)

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Re: Black Xantia NA Diesel auto... Camshaft? No, conrod failure... Le moteur est mort...

Post by xantia_v6 »

I have seen an (old) ford engine that looked like that, and the only bottom end damage was a broken piston with a detached crown. The rest of the piston and rings were still happily traversing up and down the bore.