Dump Your Deezel

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harryp
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by harryp »

OK, so why are manufactures allowed to quote their own trumped up figures I wonder :shock: . Maybe it ought to be illegal if there is an accredited body doing just that???

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white exec
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by white exec »

Better get in quick on the EPA data - it's in Tr*mp's sights, along with the Ethics Committee. :shock:
What better function for an objective and independent EU test facility? - but that's probably going out with the bathwater too. =D>

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Mandrake
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Mandrake »

harryp wrote:OK, so why are manufactures allowed to quote their own trumped up figures I wonder :shock: . Maybe it ought to be illegal if there is an accredited body doing just that???
I guess because there is a matter of interpretation of how mileage should be tested - if the test is a constant 50mph with no accelerating or braking then of course you'll get great range.

If you're constantly stopping and starting and have the heater on all the time it will be much less. Which is correct ? The lowest figure ? The average figure ?

On a conventional ICE car you had city, motorway and combined, but who's to say how much city and how much motorway driving goes into the combined figure ? Even on ICE cars there is disagreement with how it should be tested.

At the end of the day the figure quoted by the manufacturer will be technically accurate for the testing regime they used - they're not lying about the number, they're just choosing a test scenario that will be favourable, and every manufacturer will choose something a bit different to make their figures look better.

That's why independent agencies like the EPA are needed - they stick to a standardised testing regime and apply it to all cars. If their regime is representative of "typical" driving (whatever that is) then the figure will also be realistic for the average driver, rather than just being a relative comparison between cars.

Should it be legally mandated that all EV manufacturers stick to the same prescribed testing regime ? Maybe ? Will it happen... maybe ? Did it happen with ICE cars ?

Until then take figures with a grain of salt and look for independent testing, or do your own testing! A lot of EV reviews I've watched on youtube people have managed to borrow a car for a few days for review purposes and actually measured the range they get before making a decision on the car. Some EV's live up to their claimed range (Tesla in particular, who actually quote EPA figures on their sales pages) and some don't!

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by harryp »

An interesting statemement from Renault
If you decide to sell your ZOE, your obligation will cease once the new owner takes over the agreement

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Mandrake
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Mandrake »

white exec wrote:Better get in quick on the EPA data - it's in Tr*mp's sights, along with the Ethics Committee. :shock:
Yep, they got a presidential order to shut their mouths, basically. :roll:

I do worry for them...hopefully Trump will be too occupied with building walls to follow through with dismantling the EPA! [-X

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CitroJim
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by CitroJim »

Simon, thanks immensely for your piece on hydrogen fuel cells vs. EV and other issues. Most interesting and absorbing... I thoroughly enjoyed every word...

Same applies to the discussion on range figures too..

Keep it coming as this is fast becoming one of the very best threads to have appeared on the FCF :)
harryp wrote:An interesting statemement from Renault
If you decide to sell your ZOE, your obligation will cease once the new owner takes over the agreement
Harry, what exactly are the obligations?

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Mandrake
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Mandrake »

harryp wrote:An interesting statemement from Renault
If you decide to sell your ZOE, your obligation will cease once the new owner takes over the agreement
Ouch!

I presume you're referring to the Zoe battery rental agreement there...

Overall I think battery rental is a really bad idea, especially if the above is taken literally. Renault seem to be the only manufacturer pushing the idea of battery rental - I think once battery technology matures and is proven to be reliable we'll find that battery rental will be a thing of the past.

I certainly wouldn't be buying a 5-10 year old EV worth bugger all that still had a monthly battery rental agreement equal to the cost it was when new! The fact that you can get the new 40kWh Zoe with or without battery rental (without rental being an additional £5000 or so upfront cost) shows they are hedging their bets.

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CitroJim
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by CitroJim »

So, if you buy the batteries up-front at £5000 how long will they last and do they have any residual value at the end of their life?

How much does a replacement set cost? Is it a DIY job to replace them?

How much would monthly rental be and are they obliged to replace failed ones as part of the agreement?

Is the rental agreement perpetual or does it cease at some point? If so, is it a the end of the life of the batteries so the maker then has no obligation to replace them under any rental agreement...

These questions I'd need to have answered very clearly before thinking any further about an EV... Especially a Zoe..

What is Nissan's position for the Leaf batteries?

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Mandrake
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote:So, if you buy the batteries up-front at £5000 how long will they last and do they have any residual value at the end of their life?
How long do Zoe batteries in particular last ? Nobody knows...

A dirty little secret of the EV industry is that not all manufacturers battery tech is equal - not all are even using Lithium ion, some are using NiMH, and of those using Lithium ion there are a number of different formulations and designs that have very different properties and trade offs in terms of service life vs other features like density, charge rate etc.

Also a major factor is whether the batteries are actively heated/cooled. If you look at a Nissan Leaf (at least the original Leaf) the batteries are NOT thermally managed, and it was somewhat of a controversy that the batteries in Leaf's in hot climates like Texas were dying very rapidly at well under half their expected lifespan. When I say dying I don't mean that they stopped dead, but that they deteriorated and lost capacity much faster than expected and thus reached the end of their service life prematurely.

Lithium ion batteries don't like to get too hot and it's probably the single biggest thing that causes premature ageing and loss of capacity. They also don't like to be too cold, although I think that doesn't cause permanent damage - it just causes them to work inefficiently. (Much like a lead acid battery can't provide its rated output in sub zero conditions)

So the design of the battery temperature management system is a major factor of how long the battery will last. I hate to keep sounding like a Tesla fanboy but their advanced battery management system that includes liquid active heating and cooling is second to none, and thanks to this its looking so far that 10 years and well over 100k miles will be easy peasy - there are people that have done over 100k in the 4 years they've had their Tesla and they still get 90% of the original rated range.

They keep the battery within a narrow temperature range during use by heating or cooling as required and this prolongs the battery life. In fact in recent software updates the car will actually heat or cool the batteries while switched off and parked if they get outside a (wider) safe temperature range, as even sitting unused in extreme cold or extreme heat is bad for the battery life, so its better to consume a small amount of energy from the battery to heat or cool itself! (Using the resistive heating or A/C system to cool the battery)

I think most current EV models have active battery heating/cooling systems of some sort or another but I know the original Leaf (not sure about the latest Leaf) was a notable omission and it suffered for it.

In short I think that some of the current battery designs have the potential to have pretty long service lives (lets say, the same life as you would expect from an auto transmission before a rebuild) but some others will not last as well, and until they reach a certain age we just won't know. It will vary a lot from model to model.

Another thing to keep in mind is that unless there is a catastrophic failure (unlikely) the life span of the battery is just how much reduction in full charge range you're willing to accept. If you started with only 120 miles range and you lost 20% after 10 years you might find that insufficient to meet your needs, but if you started with a 300 mile range and lost 20% after 10 years would you consider that acceptable ? Probably ?

So battery life concerns will be mitigated on models where the full charge range is already really good and be more of an issue on short range models.
How much does a replacement set cost? Is it a DIY job to replace them?
No idea! At the moment its not a DIY job as the parts won't be available on the open market. But the same is true of most brand new cars. 10 years from now it could well be feasible, and the 3rd party service industry will adapt to the change I suppose. Parts and documentation will find their way out. Clones of dealer diagnostic tools (ala Lexia) will come onto the market as well hopefully as they may be necessary for tasks such as evaluating the performance of a battery or replacing it.
How much would monthly rental be and are they obliged to replace failed ones as part of the agreement?
It seems to be relatively expensive (IMHO):

https://www.renault.co.uk/renault-finan ... -hire.html

Yes I think it includes replacing a battery if it fails or its capacity drops to an "unacceptable" level, but I don't know what percentage loss is considered unacceptable.
Is the rental agreement perpetual or does it cease at some point? If so, is it a the end of the life of the batteries so the maker then has no obligation to replace them under any rental agreement...
I think it's perpetual until you sell the car! Not good for someone who does low mileages I'd say..
These questions I'd need to have answered very clearly before thinking any further about an EV... Especially a Zoe..
Indeed! If I was considering a Zoe I don't think I would even consider the rental option.
What is Nissan's position for the Leaf batteries?
I think Renault is the only EV maker offering battery rental. As far as I know Nissan like everyone else just sells you the battery in the up front cost, they will replace it under warranty for the duration of the warranty and outside that it is a normal service item if it breaks down that you would pay to have replaced. As I say though, I think outright failure of batteries is very rare, the main mode of failure is gradual loss of capacity and therefore range until the range becomes unacceptable.

Tesla's warranty is quite interesting, it has a standard warranty that covers any faults and defects in the whole car comparable to a normal ICE warranty for 4 years or 50k miles, whichever comes first, but there is a separate 8 year unlimited mile warranty for battery and drivetrain. (which includes motors, inverters, the step down gearbox and diff, and possibly driveshafts)

Expect a sudden price drop in second hand Tesla's as they approach 8 years old - if you're willing to take on the risk that the battery or motors won't fail outside the 8 year warranty of course. :lol: Since they first came out in 2013 that won't start happening until 2021...and from what I've read I would avoid the first couple of years of production as there were quite a few problems that were ironed out over time, and not all of those fixes were retrofitted on earlier cars during servicing.

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CitroJim
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by CitroJim »

Thanks Simon, that's some very clear and detailed answers there. Much appreciated. I must agree the battery rental is really quite steep. Not bad perhaps for a high-mileage user but as you say, for someone like me it would be very expensive indeed. £60 a month plus however much the electricity bill would be for charging buys me a lot of diesel. Currently I spend perhaps £20 a month on fuel...

Although things are improving in the EV sphere, it still remains far from attractive for the low-mileage user like myself. It's counter-intuitive really as in all other ways is perfect for the low-mileage/short-journey user but currently, not at those costs...

Not when you consider say, a C1 and how much that costs to run...

This is one area where I'd have thought the hydrogen fuel-cell option would have been far more appropriate.

mickeymoon

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by mickeymoon »

We spend about £230 per month on fuel. I'm seriously considering a second hand Leaf as a replacement car for the missus later in the year. It would be ideal for her as most of her journeys are less than 20 miles, and we could keep the petrol car for longer journeys, but on a reduced insurance premium and obviously using less fuel. I worked out an 8ķ Leaf would pay for itself in about 2.5 years, providing it doesn't break.

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CitroJim
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by CitroJim »

mickeymoon wrote:We spend about £230 per month on fuel. I'm seriously considering a second hand Leaf as a replacement car for the missus later in the year.
Given your fuel costs and proposed uses then that makes sense... The economies work...

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Mandrake
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Mandrake »

Something I'm surprised nobody has asked in this thread yet, but do any FCF members already own an electric car of any kind, perhaps as a second car ? As far as I know nobody has come forward yet :-D

Are we all petrol and diesel heads or are we all just thrifty and used to running old cars we can afford to buy which doesn't quite yet apply to electric cars because they're all still so new ?

I'm sure that will change over time - I still remember this forum when everyone seemed to own a Xantia and C5's were new, expensive and scary. (to DIY repair)

Now Xantia's are all but gone and C5's have taken the role of the Xantia's as aging but cheap and DIY'able transport. Are electric cars next ?

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CitroJim
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by CitroJim »

Personally Simon, I'm looking forward to the time when time-expired EVs become available cheaply. It'll be something new and exciting to play around with - bring it on ;)

I'm sure by then replacement batteries will be freely and cheaply available and a bit of DIY knowledge will have been accumulated with this forum can then add to...

How long? Five years or longer?

mickeymoon

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by mickeymoon »

I like cars. I think an EV would be a great thing. It doesn't have to have a petrol or diesel engine for me, just be nice and/or interesting to drive. I'd imagine with the torque "curve" of an electric motor and advances in technology over the next few years there will be some very interesting evs being made..

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