Dump Your Deezel

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EDC5
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by EDC5 »

I also saw that report, well, a shortened one on Look North. I didn't quite understand the issue with the trains past york. It appears that the trackside electronics can't handle the train? Has this got something to do with an excessive voltage drop caused by the power draw affecting the signal's own power supply perhaps?

Personally, I can't see how installign all of that trackside power delviery infrastructure can possibly be cheaper than running a diesel.....

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bobins
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by bobins »

EDC5 wrote:
10 Sep 2018, 20:31
I also saw that report, well, a shortened one on Look North. I didn't quite understand the issue with the trains past york. It appears that the trackside electronics can't handle the train? Has this got something to do with an excessive voltage drop caused by the power draw affecting the signal's own power supply perhaps?
According to the BBC report:
"Electromagnetic emissions from the train are interfering with existing safety critical systems"

Personally, I can't see how installing all of that trackside power delviery infrastructure can possibly be cheaper than running a diesel.....

I can see where you've gone wrong - you've applied logic to a Government backed project. Bad move.

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white exec
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by white exec »

Surely to goodness traction current isn't connected to signalling supply?! #-o
A few tens of thousands of amps (each train) might have the potential for a bit of EMR though - but nothing new in that.

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EDC5
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by EDC5 »

I agree, I think there is a much bigger issue here as the trains could surely be 'turned down' to the power levels of the existing trains on the network for the sensitive regions..

Other than that, the trains themselves are hybrids so does it actually matter? I don't understand this obsession with electrification... bring back the class 43, that's what I say! =D>

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

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Costing The Earth on Radio 4 had a 30 minute programme about electric cars:

"Is the time finally right to buy an electric car? Peter Gibbs has just taken the plunge. We join him on his first road trip to see if Britain really is ready to wave goodbye to diesel and petrol.
He drops in on Robert Llewellyn, Kryten in Red Dwarf and the man behind the electric car Youtube channel, Fully Charged, for some initial inspiration and a moan about the difficulties of charging on the road. He checks out the real environmental benefits with Nick Molden from Emissions Analytics. He asks the Gardeners' Question Time panel if they're ready to make the shift and hears from Roads Minister, Jesse Norman and the scientists at Warwick University who are making radical advances in battery technology.
If they really can offer a car with a 300 mile range that can be charged in 10 minutes then the future may very well be electric."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000mjy

I didn't get to hear all of it, but what I did hear was interesting - both pro and con.
The presenter bought a Nissan Leaf earlier this year.... and I didn't get to hear about the hot weather charging issues they've been reported to have ! :wink:

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van ordinaire
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by van ordinaire »

The future can never be electric (anymore than it was 100 years ago) because the cars are NOT environmentally friendly, beyond being clean (at least at the point of use).
By the time the car is built, the damage is done - it doesn't matter what you run it on
Electric cars (unlike old milk floats that could be re-built time & time again) are, essentially, disposable because once the batterys fail they're scrap, as, in many cases, there's no economic way of replacing them, nor can they be re-cycled.
Their widespread use seems to be based on everyone having a garage, or at least a drive/parking place, where they can re-charge, what about those who (for any number of reasons) have to park in the street, not necessarily outside, or even near, their home, flat dwellers, those who have the security of a lock-up - & let it not be forgotten, that not everyone has mains electricity. Can you imagine the chaos caused by a power-cut - or a big family gathering?

Then there's maintenance/repairs - it seems few small garages could afford to make an area of their workshop HSE compliant to work on electric cars.

Finally, probably London's first, apparently, dumped electric car, festooned in hazard tape, has had a large sign placed on it warning the unwary (or, possibly, just passers-by) of the danger of a fatal shock.

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by MikeT »

Just read an article that says Leeds may introduce a wide-reaching Clean Air Zone which could see lorries and busses charged £50.

It got me thinking though - like when a company/authority is "fined" for wrong-doing, they don't really suffer the penalty as ultimately, it's the customers/consumers of said company that pays.

So too would these CAZ charges have to be passed on, which is not really an incentive to change habit is it?

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van ordinaire
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by van ordinaire »

No, it's just like working drivers accepting parking fines as inevitable - & their employers considering them a normal business expenditure.

Not surprised at Leeds coming up with another ploy to maintain its objective to be the least driver-friendly city in the country now the idea of signposts that didn't inform but totally frustrated any attempt to get into the centre must've been largely defeated by SatNavs.

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by myglaren »

Some info on air pollution and engine testing from the Beeb.

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Interesting Steve. No doubt many will whinge about the Ultra Low Emissions Zones but really in my view we should just be getting on and making the change. Exhaust emissions from ICE both diesel/petrol and hybrids are toxic and hazardous to health.

Zero tail pipe emissions are a good thing.....yes but what about back at the power station. Well if you do believe in the DPF, EGR and a supplementary tank full of synthetic urine or anything else supposedly applied to make ICE exhausts safe....then rather than have 30 million of them fitted to 30 million cars just have some very big ones at the power stations!

REgards Neil

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Gibbo2286 »

myglaren wrote:
08 Apr 2019, 12:52
Some info on air pollution and engine testing from the Beeb.


Blimey was he paid by the word? He could have told that tale in couple of paragraphs.

I'm surprised at how small the emissions are, tiny fractions of a gram per kilometre.

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Gibbo2286 »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
08 Apr 2019, 13:26
Interesting Steve. No doubt many will whinge about the Ultra Low Emissions Zones but really in my view we should just be getting on and making the change. Exhaust emissions from ICE both diesel/petrol and hybrids are toxic and hazardous to health.

Zero tail pipe emissions are a good thing.....yes but what about back at the power station. Well if you do believe in the DPF, EGR and a supplementary tank full of synthetic urine or anything else supposedly applied to make ICE exhausts safe....then rather than have 30 million of them fitted to 30 million cars just have some very big ones at the power stations!

REgards Neil


Or as I've suggested before air condition the most polluted streets.

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white exec
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by white exec »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
08 Apr 2019, 13:35
I'm surprised at how small the emissions are, tiny fractions of a gram per kilometre.

We're talking about gases here, which are very light, so a small mass of gas can occupy a considerable volume.
Rough example: 1g of air occupies approx 0.8 of a litre (sea level, 20degC). So if a car is emitting just 0.1g of a gas per km travelled, for a 50km journey, that's 5g or 4 litres of gas. Multiply that by all the vehicles passing a pedestrian's location/stint on the street, and you get some idea of what urban air can be loaded with.
I know the maths are rough, but it does illustrate the problem.

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Gibbo2286 »

white exec wrote:
08 Apr 2019, 14:28
Gibbo2286 wrote:
08 Apr 2019, 13:35
I'm surprised at how small the emissions are, tiny fractions of a gram per kilometre.

We're talking about gases here, which are very light, so a small mass of gas can occupy a considerable volume.
Rough example: 1g of air occupies approx 0.8 of a litre (sea level, 20degC). So if a car is emitting just 0.1g of a gas per km travelled, for a 50km journey, that's 5g or 4 litres of gas. Multiply that by all the vehicles passing a pedestrian's location/stint on the street, and you get some idea of what urban air can be loaded with.
I know the maths are rough, but it does illustrate the problem.


So it's a very light gas emitting from a hot exhaust, wouldn't that by its very nature disappear rapidly skywards? :)

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by white exec »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
08 Apr 2019, 17:36
So it's a very light gas emitting from a hot exhaust, wouldn't that by its very nature disappear rapidly skywards? :)
Unfortunately not.
The gases cool very quickly to the ambient air temperature, and their densities (at 20°C) are as follows:

Air 1.205 kg/m³
CO2 1.842
NO (nitric oxide) 1.249
NO2 (nitrogen dioxide) 1.45

So all three of these will tend to sink to ground level, being denser than normal air.
Particulate matter will be heavier than any of these.