Dump Your Deezel

This is the place for posts that don't fit into any other category.

Moderator: RichardW

Gibbo2286
Donor 2020
Posts: 5188
Joined: 08 Jun 2011, 18:04
x 1105

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Gibbo2286 »

van ordinaire wrote:
31 Mar 2018, 23:18
I've never understood why we had diesels at all - & didn't go straight to electrification.


Probably because most cities had only recently dumped electric trams tore up the tracks and replaced them with diesel buses ............seemed like a good idea at the time. 8-)

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 43889
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1780

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by CitroJim »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 11:24
............seemed like a good idea at the time. 8-)


As a lot of ideas do :roll: :twisted:

User avatar
Michel
Donor 2020
Posts: 1829
Joined: 29 May 2017, 13:50
x 392

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Michel »

van ordinaire wrote:
31 Mar 2018, 23:18
I've never understood why we had diesels at all - & didn't go straight to electrification.


Cost.

wurlycorner
Posts: 1367
Joined: 30 Oct 2012, 23:37
x 60

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by wurlycorner »

bobins wrote:
31 Mar 2018, 20:11
It's a pity the third rail system we've got down this neck of the woods can't be used across the country as there's absolutely zero overhead catenary associated with it and it can't, realistically, be stolen. The main - and somewhat difficult to overcome - drawback is people will insist on getting electrocuted on them :(


Thats not the biggest problem with it. The bigger problem is that it's a horribly inefficient distribution system. Low voltage does not travel long distances so you need booster and additional sub-stations very frequently (which are expensive bits of kit). Plus because it's low voltage it has to run very high current, so the switchgear has to be bigger (and hence more expensive). You are limited to the overall capacity of power available (for same reasons) which limits either the quantity of trains that can be run in comparison with OLE, or the hotel load (equipment in the train) it can support.
Plus you have horrible problems with EMC at low level (which means you have to replace and/or immunise loads of existing trackside equipment, not least of which the signalling system) and you have to change the entire earthing/bonding system. For maintenance (including ordinary track and civil maintenance) you have to use expensive insulated tools everywhere, you need additional intrusive isolations just to carry some maintenance / inspections that in an ole area can be done without isolating the supply, it costs a lot more to maintain (the third rail doesn't last anything like as long and ole systems), it doesn't like snow and ice...

Etc.

Aside from that, yeah, it's great in comparison to overhead line :)

User avatar
bobins
Donor 2021
Posts: 4070
Joined: 05 Jul 2012, 18:07
x 1265

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by bobins »

The Office of Rail Regulation seems to rule out any further third rail expansion unless you've got a really really good excuse for it due to good old 'elf 'n' safety 8-[ :
Quote: " There is a presumption against the reasonable practicability of new-build or extended DC third rail in view of the safety requirements duty holders must satisfy in order to justify the use of third rail."
and: "ORR considers that the weight of safety evidence creates a presumption against new-build or extended third rail being reasonably practicable. A duty holder will therefore need to demonstrate, to ORR’s satisfaction, that any proposed new-build or extended third rail proposal complies with the applicable legislation and be able to explain how and why it rebuts this presumption."
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_fil ... tement.pdf

Spoilsports :cry:

User avatar
van ordinaire
Donor 2017
Posts: 2537
Joined: 23 Jun 2015, 14:45
x 240

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by van ordinaire »

So it's only the ORR that doesn't know people get electrocuted by overhead cables?!

In London there was about 10 years between the last tram & the 1st diesel train

How is electrification cheaper now than 60 years ago - by more than the cost of the dieselisation programme?

wurlycorner
Posts: 1367
Joined: 30 Oct 2012, 23:37
x 60

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by wurlycorner »

van ordinaire wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 23:14
So it's only the ORR that doesn't know people get electrocuted by overhead cables?!


It is considerably more difficult - you basically have to try to get electrocuted by overhead line, whereas it's very easy to get electrocuted by third rail.
I've worked in both third rail and overhead line depots and there is absolutely no question which is safer, for a whole host of reasons. Live conductors that you can inadvertently tread onto/walk into/bump into, are really, really bad idea...

User avatar
van ordinaire
Donor 2017
Posts: 2537
Joined: 23 Jun 2015, 14:45
x 240

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by van ordinaire »

Logic dictates that all that must be true BUT people do get killed by overhead lines, although you would think that's actually quite difficut, even though you only need to get too close BUT - never understimate stupidity! Curiously, news stories of people killed by overhead lines seem to be more common than those who suffer the same fate from a 3rd rail.

By an amazing coincidence there was a snippet in this morning's paper about an unsuccessful attempt, under the Freedom Of Information Act, to obtain info. on diesel locomotive emissions. Despite the fact there is no data to disclose it is still maintained that the problem in London is mainly attributable to motor vehicles, particularly diesels - sorry, where's the evidence?

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 16152
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1639

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Looks like emissions from diesel locomotives over the long term will wither on the vine if the UK's ambitious strategy for 2040 is implemented (just a hint of sarcasm :wink: :) )

Goodbye Diesel-The UK Government has announced that diesel-only trains will be phased out by 2040.

Will we have Battery Electric Trains to get over the "Overhead Wiring-up" of the entire network, or indeed will some Hydrogen power trains find a niche for themselves in the mix?

And this ladies and gentlemen is a hydrogen powered train the Coradia iLint er...and its French! made by Alstom.

Image

Regards Neil
Last edited by NewcastleFalcon on 04 Apr 2018, 18:03, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
bobins
Donor 2021
Posts: 4070
Joined: 05 Jul 2012, 18:07
x 1265

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by bobins »

I think that headline should read: "Government has announced that diesel-only trains will be phased out by 2040 except for those that are not phased out" :wink:

wurlycorner
Posts: 1367
Joined: 30 Oct 2012, 23:37
x 60

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by wurlycorner »

van ordinaire wrote:
04 Apr 2018, 00:17
Logic dictates that all that must be true BUT people do get killed by overhead lines, although you would think that's actually quite difficut, even though you only need to get too close BUT - never understimate stupidity! Curiously, news stories of people killed by overhead lines seem to be more common than those who suffer the same fate from a 3rd rail.
I have no idea of relative numbers (although I have read particular investigations of each type of case) and yes of course people do get killed by overhead lines (domestic power as well as railway ole) but the fact that happens is more newsworthy, because it's so much more difficult to make happen. Plus when it does, it will trip out a larger section (as I said earlier, distribution sections are longer) hence more widespread disruption.
By an amazing coincidence there was a snippet in this morning's paper about an unsuccessful attempt, under the Freedom Of Information Act, to obtain info. on diesel locomotive emissions. Despite the fact there is no data to disclose it is still maintained that the problem in London is mainly attributable to motor vehicles, particularly diesels - sorry, where's the evidence?


There is research conducted into health impact of diesels fumes in stations, conducted by railway safety and research bodies and guidance from same and the regulator.
However as to the evidence of pollution caused by diesel trains versus motor vehicles.... It's a very, very simple case of volume...
How many diesel trains do you think there are per square mile particularly in a built up centre (which is the only place it really matters) versus how many motor vehicles?
The government has made assessments of proportion of pollution caused by all human activity, so within that, has considered that caused by diesel rail vehicles.

User avatar
myglaren
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 19921
Joined: 02 Mar 2008, 14:30
x 1571

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by myglaren »


Online
Hell Razor5543
Donor 2021
Posts: 11663
Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
x 1394

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

According to the BBC News the sales of diesel cars are down nearly 40% since last year. Mind you, car sales are down overall.

User avatar
van ordinaire
Donor 2017
Posts: 2537
Joined: 23 Jun 2015, 14:45
x 240

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by van ordinaire »

Apparently the number of electric vehicles registered in Germany has been static since the '70's (having steadilly fallen over the previous 50 years!)

User avatar
van ordinaire
Donor 2017
Posts: 2537
Joined: 23 Jun 2015, 14:45
x 240

Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by van ordinaire »

myglaren wrote:
05 Apr 2018, 06:51


To introduce overhead electrics in a country where riding on the roof is normal, is not so much negligent as criminal.