Dump Your Deezel

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Mandrake
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Mandrake »

In the "rush" to ban Petrol and Diesel cars, I don't see any firm commitment from the government on making the electricity generation in the UK cleaner. While our grid is a lot cleaner than China and Australia - both of which rely heavily on coal, we still have a way to go. Australia completely has its head in the sand, (despite having one of the best locations for Solar power in the world with un-populated sunny desert right next to population centres) however China is making massive strides just in the last 2-3 years to move from coal to Hydroelectric, but I don't see the UK government pushing renewable generation by policy, although some changes seems to be happening through normal market forces as wind and solar becomes cheaper to produce than burning things like coal.

The current and recent generation mix is here:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/chart/electric ... -source-gb

The trends at the moment are clear - coal is dropping line a stone, (and is often switched off completely for days at a time) Nuclear is constant, gas fell a few years ago but has risen again, probably to replace coal, wind and solar have increased dramatically, Bio-energy has increased quite a bit, Hydroelectric is tiny and will remain that way, (the UK doesn't really have the natural resources for mass Hydro production) and imports of electricity from other countries like France have dropped.

So I think the UK gets about a B- at the moment for transition to renewable/green electricity generation. We're doing a lot better than some other countries, (Australia, AHEM) but not nearly as well as we could.

Any government mandated move to EV's under the guise of "pollution" needs to go hand in hand with a move to green/renewable electricity generation. An EV is already greener on our current electricity generation mix, however it could still be a lot better. We're also still burning an awful lot of natural gas for electricity that really ought to be "saved" for central heating, because at the moment electricity is not a viable replacement for the venerable gas boilers we all rely on every winter...

Hydroelectric will never be more than a few percent in the UK as despite having a copious supply of rain we just don't have the locations to build large natural dams, so a true move to majority renewable generation is only going to come from solar and wind. We have less sun than many other countries (!) but still enough to generate a good chunk of power, and we have plenty of wind... A combination of pumped and battery storage on the grid will help take wind and solar from intermittent "unreliable" sources of power to reliable sources of power once bolstered by storage devices.

MikeT
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by MikeT »

I said it before and I'll say it again, it's all smoke and mirrors. The only agenda our government is reluctantly reacting to is local pollution blackspots. AKA nimbyism. Currently 27 areas nationally have been identified, though as we make progress and the problem drifts elsewhere, expect these to expand.

Hints are this will likely come in the vain of discouraging (charging) or outright banning us from accessing certain areas using ICE vehicles. Keep an eye on Oxford Street for a classic example of how. Also watch out for changes at seaports where tankers need to keep the engine idling, regardless how long they're docked for. Not sure they'll be looking at air travel which is growing exponentially as the data isn't so clear though concentrations of road traffic around them is. None of this is concerned with global pollution, the elephant in the room.

Gibbo2286
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Gibbo2286 »

I've said it before I know but I'm sure it would be cheaper to air condition the pollution hot spots than to change the whole of the motor vehicle population from oil to electric.

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
26 Jul 2017, 12:05
I've said it before I know but I'm sure it would be cheaper to air condition the pollution hot spots than to change the whole of the motor vehicle population from oil to electric.


They could even make the oil companies pay for it.

MikeT
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by MikeT »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
26 Jul 2017, 12:06
Gibbo2286 wrote:
26 Jul 2017, 12:05
I've said it before I know but I'm sure it would be cheaper to air condition the pollution hot spots than to change the whole of the motor vehicle population from oil to electric.


They could even make the oil companies pay for it.


:rofl2: Good one! It was written in the contract/license that the offshore rigs would have to pay for the own decomissioning clean up. Guess who's actually paying?

Gibbo2286
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Gibbo2286 »

You've been reading too much Guardian MikeT, the oil companies are paying for it, they'll get tax relief but the taxpayer was happy enough to get the benefits of the oil and the treasury happy enough to tax it heavily as it was produced..........and squander the money raised.

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Mandrake
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Mandrake »

myglaren wrote:
26 Jul 2017, 07:02
Ban on ICE cars from 2040? Beeb

This story got top billing on BBC news at 6pm tonight, and they actually did a reasonably decent and neutral job of covering it.

For those of you north of the border Reporting Scotland at 6:30 did their own segment on it, also top billed.

Whether or not the governments 2040 plan is misguided or not, the coverage on TV will hopefully give impetus to all those people wondering "what's an electric car then eh ?", to actually find out a bit more about it, or at least be aware that electric cars are a thing! :lol:

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white exec
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by white exec »

I think the media have a crucial role in this. It's something the public might actually be interested in...

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daviemck2006
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by daviemck2006 »

I'm not sure if an electric car would have the range just now to do me. Nearly an 80 mile round trip to my daughters, plus any running about Elgin once I'm there, over 90 miles to Aberdeen Airport when I do the heliport with my son in law, and over 100 if I go into Aberdeen for shopping. That's a problem here, everything is long distance.

Mind you by 2040 I shall be 77 if I'm still alive and probably too dottled to drive, or physically unable, or a combination of both!

Bick
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Bick »

IMO its all BS when electric cars have a 500 miles range at 70mph it may happen. I just think they have told us that many lies they (the government) actually think we believe them. They are incompetent and they dont even realise it, if they did they wouldn't care anyway.

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white exec
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by white exec »

The current UK government is cynically happy to encourage and maintain public ignorance, and feed a daily drip of shallow and misleading soundbites into the media. Attempts at social, political and applied scientific education in schools is resisted, and decent class sizes now something reserved only for the private schools their own children attend.

What is most alarming is ministers issuing figures and statements which in no way accord with reality (or even government departments' own figures). This amounts to blatant lying and misinformation. Years of this, uncorrected until far too late by the BBC, accounted for the sad episode that was the Brexit referendum.

Sorry, but as a retired professional educationalist, I am saddened and appalled by all this, but heartened that many others are too.

Bick
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Bick »

white exec wrote:
27 Jul 2017, 07:19
The current UK government is cynically happy to encourage and maintain public ignorance, and feed a daily drip of shallow and misleading soundbites into the media. Attempts at social, political and applied scientific education in schools is resisted, and decent class sizes now something reserved only for the private schools their own children attend.

What is most alarming is ministers issuing figures and statements which in no way accord with reality (or even government departments' own figures). This amounts to blatant lying and misinformation. Years of this, uncorrected until far too late by the BBC, accounted for the sad episode that was the Brexit referendum.

Sorry, but as a retired professional educationalist, I am saddened and appalled by all this, but heartened that many others are too.


You are spot on sir - remember the BBC must jump when their master speaks to keep their licence fee.

dnsey
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by dnsey »

I recommend investing in copper mining now. Even if the Government plans don't materialise, demand for the metal is going to increase rapidly.

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Mandrake
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Mandrake »

daviemck2006 wrote:
27 Jul 2017, 01:41
I'm not sure if an electric car would have the range just now to do me. Nearly an 80 mile round trip to my daughters, plus any running about Elgin once I'm there, over 90 miles to Aberdeen Airport when I do the heliport with my son in law, and over 100 if I go into Aberdeen for shopping. That's a problem here, everything is long distance.

Mind you by 2040 I shall be 77 if I'm still alive and probably too dottled to drive, or physically unable, or a combination of both!

I'll be 64 by then with a 24 year old son to chase after so I still intend to be driving. :twisted:

Unless you want to pay Tesla money, current electric car range is a bit short for some uses I agree... the longest range available in the UK that is "affordable" is probably the 40kWh Zoe which will do a realistic 140 miles or so. But expect to see a number of new models in the next 2-3 years that will do over 150-200 miles.

Don't forget rapid charging though. In Scotland we have (mostly) free charging from Charge Place Scotland, and coverage is surprisingly good. Have a look on https://www.plugshare.com/ what you're looking for are the orange markers which are the "rapid" chargers. Ignore the green ones which are "fast" chargers found in car parks etc which will only charge at about the same speed as you can charge at home. It's the orange marked rapid chargers that make long distance trips possible even in shorter range EV's.

On the route between Aberdeen and Elgin, there are 5 Rapid (Chademo or CCS) chargers in Aberdeen, one each at Inverurie, Huntly, Keith, and Elgin. A 50kW rapid charger like this depending on the car can add up to about 80 miles or range in under 30 minutes. So if you were visiting in Elgin you could plug in for 30 minute while you go to get a coffee. Or if you were staying the night at your daughters just plug in overnight and you'd have a full charge over night. Not as convenient with current shorter range EV's but certainly not impossible.

Bick wrote:
27 Jul 2017, 04:22
IMO its all BS when electric cars have a 500 miles range at 70mph it may happen.
So you need to drive 500 miles in one day at 70mph without stopping ? I kinda doubt that somehow, your bladder will see to that. :rofl2: Not to mention you will be so tired by then you will be a danger to other people on the road. [-X I really don't get the obsession with "must have 500 miles range" that so many people that have never driven an EV have.

I have one of the shortest range EV's around at about 60 miles, I bought it specifically for my 36 mile daily commute plus short range errand running like shopping. I still have the Xantia V6 on the driveway for when I need long trips or large load carrying. To my surprise the Xantia gets so little use that it is growing cobwebs and one of the headlights is fogging up inside... We did one holiday trip hundreds of miles up north about a month ago in the Xantia, (where we needed the load space, not just the range, as the Ion is a very small car) and apart from that it has done maybe 200 miles in 4 months, with half of that being me taking it for the occasional quick drive for fun and so it doesn't rot away! :oops: Meanwhile I've done over 4500 miles of daily, trouble free driving in the Ion, and it has cost me pennies in charging - about 3p/mile.

In reality this "short range" EV has done at least 95% of my monthly driving without any hassles at all, so I think most people grossly overestimate how much range their really NEED as opposed to how much range they think they WANT. I really do liken it to the 7+ day battery life of early cell phones that could only call and text and maybe play snake, to the 1-2 day battery life of modern smart phones. Would it be nice to have a smart phone that you only had to charge once a week ? Sure. Is it that big a deal to plug your smart phone in each night to charge to get all the benefits that a smart phone brings ? No! I think an EV is similar - lots of benefits, if you're willing to plug it in each night to start with a full charge each day, and the occasional rapid charge on the go if you're driving out of range.
dnsey wrote:
27 Jul 2017, 08:42
I recommend investing in copper mining now. Even if the Government plans don't materialise, demand for the metal is going to increase rapidly.
Copper is already extremely heavily used in electronics and industry, it is THE material for making wires and printed circuit boards. It is also in plentiful supply. The extra demand from making EV motors will be but a small drop in the current supply of copper for industry...

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daviemck2006
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by daviemck2006 »

I wouldnt be happy with a range of just 60 miles or so, but wouldnt need 500 miles at 70 mph! A range of about 150 miles would be plenty, that would do an Aberdeen shopping trip comfortably without having to worry about getting the top up charge when I am there. And charging at home, I am ok as I live in a house with a private drive, but that could be a problem if one lived in a block of flats, or even in terraced houses with no drives and no guarantee of parking at your house. But then 2040 is a long time away yet for technology to move on to resolve some of these issues. By then battery packs may be small enough to be changed in a matter of seconds, and what are petrol stations now could be battery change stations, where you drive in, swap battery packs and drive off in less time than it takes to pump in 50 litres of fuel just now.