Dump Your Deezel

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lexi
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by lexi »

2K is ok IF you were buying a new car anyway. To me, that is the depreciation on purchase as you leave the dealers. The diesels are horrible. My Donk C5 emits a noxious smell under the carport on idle, yet looks clean running through the exhaust. No plans to sell mind you..........bangerenomics!

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CitroJim
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by CitroJim »

lexi wrote:No plans to sell mind you..........bangerenomics!
Precisely... £2K will run Gabriel for a long, long time...

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Re: RE: Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by mickeymoon »

lexi wrote:2K is ok IF you were buying a new car anyway. To me, that is the depreciation on purchase as you leave the dealers.
It's also the VAT on a £10k small car...... so the govt gets it back anyway.

If they gave me 2ķ to scrap my diesel car as long as I didn't have to buy a new car, or could spend it on a petrol car under a certain age, I'd be happy with that. Our next long-term car will be a Prius, but it won't be a new one (12/13 plate), so the scheme would be pointless to me.

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Mandrake
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Re: RE: Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote: One thing is to stop using cars for so many short journeys that could be walked or biked. Arguably all cars make most pollution on these short trips.
All internal combustion engine cars you mean Jim! ;)

Yet another benefit of electric cars - there is no "cold running" phase where they are spewing out far greater pollution and running at lower efficiency. They are always spewing out zero pollution hot or cold, and the efficiency of an electric motor is no worse when cold, in fact it is probably slightly better due to lower resistance in the cold windings! :)

There is a small penalty on the battery when it is very cold where you can't access the full capacity until the battery warms up a bit, but the better electric cars have thermal management systems that can both heat and cool the batteries to keep them in their happy zone, so this is a minor issue compared to running an ICE engine cold every morning spewing out high pollution until the catalyst warms up...

There is also no fuel consumed when stopped at junctions and traffic lights, so ideal for slow stop start traffic, especially with regeneration to regain some of that stopping energy...
The school run is the obvious target and the second one is short work commutes...
Roll on affordable and decent electric cars, the perfect thing for school runs and work commutes even if they're not quite there for the weekend away yet!

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Come the crunch most of the population could manage quite well without a car of any sort.................and their fitness would improve tremendously,. :) :)

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Stickyfinger
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Stickyfinger »

Gibbo2286 wrote:Come the crunch most of the population could manage quite well without a car of any sort.................and their fitness would improve tremendously,. :) :)
Please feel free to transport my Cast Iron Radiator samples on your bike or bus, it will not improve your health I can assure you :)

It is not often the case that I would have time to sit and charge a car for 4 hours.......I accept it will come once battery technology changes. The ability of us all to ignore the impact of these technologies on the environment (in other countries) is amazing.

https://u.osu.edu/2367group3/environmen ... g-lithium/

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Stickyfinger wrote:
Gibbo2286 wrote:Come the crunch most of the population could manage quite well without a car of any sort.................and their fitness would improve tremendously,. :) :)
Please feel free to transport my Cast Iron Radiator samples on your bike or bus, it will not improve your health I can assure you :)

It is not often the case that I would have time to sit and charge a car for 4 hours.......I accept it will come once battery technology changes. The ability of us all to ignore the impact of these technologies on the environment (in other countries) is amazing.

https://u.osu.edu/2367group3/environmen ... g-lithium/
I did say 'most' not 'all' but I'll bet that 'most' would also tell us that their special needs would simply not let them live without a car............thinking about the difficulty of getting past the school gates at breakfast time. :)

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Re: RE: Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by mickeymoon »

Gibbo2286 wrote:Come the crunch most of the population could manage quite well without a car of any sort.................and their fitness would improve tremendously,. :) :)
I could *manage* but quality and ease of life would suffer far too much. Working 20 miles from home and starting/finishing at 7am/pm depending on day or night shift - not feasible. £94 per week on the train, railway station 4 miles away at one end, two miles at the other. No way of getting there for 7am on a Sunday on PT.

Costs me £25 per week in the car including tax and insurance :)

When I have been in a position to, I've always used PT instead of the car to go to work.

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Mandrake
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Mandrake »

Stickyfinger wrote:
Gibbo2286 wrote:Come the crunch most of the population could manage quite well without a car of any sort.................and their fitness would improve tremendously,. :) :)
Please feel free to transport my Cast Iron Radiator samples on your bike or bus, it will not improve your health I can assure you :)
The public transport brigade will tell you that we should all be using busses and trains for everything, but its not always that practical and there are needs for personal transportation like a car.

Before having a child I actually caught the bus or train to work and didn't rely on a car for my commute but we did use it for shopping, visiting friends and family and trips away. It improved our mobility and quality of life but wasn't strictly essential. Now that I am dropping off a 10 month old at his Gran's every morning on the way to work, whilst it is theoretically possible for me to do so without a car it would require me to catch a bus and then a train with a push chair, drop him off then catch another train to work, then the reverse at night, hence why I was fretting a bit when the car was off the road last Sunday night...

As it is I leave the house at 7am, drive directly to his Gran's with him in a car seat, drop him off, drive a short distance to the train station then catch the train to work. On the way home I do the reverse and don't get home until about 6:45pm.

If I was to attempt to do this without a car I'd be leaving before 6:30am, and would be lucky to get home by 7:30pm, also the bus that would normally take me from the train station home doesn't run that late meaning either a 5 minute taxi ride or an additional 30 minute walk with a push chair in the dark and ice. Not cheap, or fun, depending on the option taken!!

So yes, I need a car, and I would switch to a decent electric car in a heart beat for the daily commute if I could afford it - unfortunately they have not yet trickled down to the point where I can afford one, but the day will come, and in the next 5-10 years I think.
It is not often the case that I would have time to sit and charge a car for 4 hours.......I accept it will come once battery technology changes.
This is more of a charging infrastructure problem than a battery problem. A 100kWh battery in a Tesla model S will charge to 80% in about 40 minutes using one of their Superchargers, and that 80% charge will take you about 250 miles. Smaller more modest size electric cars typically have batteries on the order of 20-50kWh (the new Renault Zoe is 41kWh for example) so the potential is there for even faster charging, since you don't have as big a battery to charge.

Note I said potential. The real issue is the plethora of different charging standards. Although all cars support all charge points in some fashion with the right cable, (except non-Tesla's can't use Tesla super chargers) if the charge point is not using the "favoured" fast charging method for that car you get slow charging. Normal 3 pin 13A plugs will only charge very slowly as well, although if you own an Electric car and have off street parking you would have a fast charge point installed at your house - the Renault Zoe includes free installation of such a fast charge point for example, and its normal for Tesla owners to get a fast charge point installed at their house.

Finally, if the car has a range that is sufficient for your daily driving (especially if its a regular commute) then you don't need to charge it during the day - plug it in at night and let it charge on night rate electricity while you sleep. Even with a 13A socket an overnight charge on a smaller EV is sufficient to get enough charge for the following day, and if you have a fast charging point installed at your house it's completely moot. So what if it takes 2-3 hours to fully charge if it is plugged in overnight ?

Charging time really is a non-issue if you can charge overnight and have sufficient range during the day from a single charge, unless you are a real road warrior who is doing hundreds of miles a day. I think most people vastly over estimate how far they need to drive without a break and don't actually need the range that a fossil fuel car gives from a single fill up. I know I don't need the range of a full fill up 99% of the time.
The ability of us all to ignore the impact of these technologies on the environment (in other countries) is amazing.

https://u.osu.edu/2367group3/environmen ... g-lithium/
Sure, mining any material is harmful for the environment, but what is worse - mining for fossil fuels so that you can burn them and pollute the environment all over the world, especially on the streets where people are trying to breathe, or mining for lithium to make a battery pack that properly designed will last for at least 10 years and can potentially be recycled ? I know one thing for sure - the fossil fuel you burn in a diesel/petrol car can't be recycled - once it's burnt its gone!! :twisted:

Lithium is also only a very small proportion of the material in a battery. Initially as electric vehicle production ramps up there will be a big demand for raw lithium to make new batteries, but once a lot of batteries are in circulation and lasting for 10+ years then being recycled the demand will level out and may actually fall. Making sure that EV lithium batteries ARE recycled at the end of their service life is a big piece of the puzzle.
Last edited by Mandrake on 06 Feb 2017, 13:26, edited 8 times in total.

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CitroJim
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by CitroJim »

Simon, sorry, I'm still of the mindset that all cars have IC engines running on fossil fuel ;) Edit my comment to read as such!
Gibbo2286 wrote:Come the crunch most of the population could manage quite well without a car of any sort.................and their fitness would improve tremendously,. :) :)
Absolutely... I'll wager the doctor's surgeries would see much less traffic too...
Stickyfinger wrote: Please feel free to transport my Cast Iron Radiator samples on your bike or bus...
Living where you do Alasdair, the answer is obvious and I believe you have the motive power living in a stable next door...

Yes, that's it - a horse and cart! That'll carry all the rads you need to...

Oats in one end and a very useful by-product out of the other ;) That'll help you grow your own veg and thus save trips to the shops...

It's win, win win all the way...

Mickey, I appreciate all cannot just suddenly drop the car and in a lot of cases they are vital but a lot can be done to lessen their use without undue loss and potentially a lot to gain...

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Stickyfinger
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Stickyfinger »

How many chickens = 1x horse power ?

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Gibbo2286 »

I was thinking back to 1965 when I bought my business, my thoughts then were can I make a living running a garage when the village of a hundred and ten homes has only three private cars, the vicar, the doctor and the poacher.

Everyone else seemed to do just fine, miners and quarrymen walked to work, many of them seven or eight miles morning and evening in all weathers, schoolchildren walked to our village school from three outlying villages.

That same village now is an obstacle course of parked cars at almost any time of the day, two three and four car families are common, the bus service has gone, not from choice but because there are no passengers, a limited subsidised service runs but I doubt that a 72 seater bus carrying two or three passengers on a milk round route is good for the environment.

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Mandrake »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:but as Bob Dylan once sang "The times they are a changin'" just a question of how fast. However clumsy this scrappage scheme may turn out to be, it will add to the momentum for change. Few car makers will be scaling up their R&D into Diesel/Petrol powertrains. The easiest way of passing stricter and stricter emissions tests, is to go with the flow and try and grab as much of the emerging electric market as possible, or be left behind.
Diesel passenger cars (and to a lesser extent petrol) have had their day, the writing is clearly on the wall now for all to see. The raw pollution from the output of a Diesel engine before it passes through all the exotic and complex emissions control system is pretty horrific, especially the particulates and NOx.

Every year the Euro regulations squeeze the allowable emissions down further and further, which results in more and more elaborate, complex, efficiency reducing, expensive to replace and failure prone emissions control equipment. DPF anyone ? [-X If these emissions control appendages didn't have any downside why would people still be trying to de-FAP even in the face of it being made technically illegal now ?

In my opinion Diesel engines reached the point of vanishing returns on emissions reductions many years ago now with nothing but smoke and mirrors since then, but the Euro regulations continued to squeeze the allowable limits, so what was the manufacturers response to this when they had already reached the limits of what could be achieved ? Cheat on the tests of course! #-o :roll: [-X With VW leading the charge but far from the only guilty party with nearly EVERY manufacturer guilty to some degree, including our beloved French Marques.

And we're not talking about maybe a 20% higher emission than claimed, in the case of VW we're talking about real world emissions that are several TIMES the allowable limits that the tests claim based on software in the ECU that deliberately cheats by reducing power and making other changes to the running of the engine if it believes it is under test. Absolutely unforgivable and blatant behaviour, and it makes it clear that today's Diesel cars CANNOT meet their claimed emissions levels under real driving! [-X

Software updates to "fix" the emissions issue result in cars that now come closer to meeting the emissions targets but lack power and performance - because the engine was never capable of providing both low emissions and good performance at the same time. [-X No wonder owners are upset when they were basically sold a lie.

Now that all the manufacturers have been busted in this scandal I'm sure that Electric Vehicles suddenly look a lot more appealing for them to meet the EU's emissions targets since a fully Electric car counts as zero emissions, and a hybrid can realistically claim to have greatly reduced emissions. The jig is up - they know they won't get away with cheating a second time so they reluctantly ramp up the EV R&D and get cracking at last.

So I do believe that the VW Diesel scandal was a big impetus towards pushing more manufacturers to pursue EV R&D and actually get EV's out on the market now that they can no longer cheat with Diesels. Other contributing factors that have all conspired at about the same time are the looming bans on Diesel cars in some large cities, battery technology improving in leaps and bounds now that people are actually putting in the R&D, a very rapid build out of public charging infrastructure since about 2013, and companies like Tesla who have no legacy ICE designs to provide a conflict of interest to show how it can be done and to make an EV that is a car that people would want to buy even if it wasn't an EV. Now people actually WANT EV's.

All these things have happened just in the last 5 years or so and the critical mass where things really get moving is almost here. Exciting times. :)

I accept that commercial vehicles may have to rely on Diesel and Petrol for a bit longer than passenger cars, but passenger cars are where the changes can and should begin.
Apparently the "What Car" Electric Car of the Year 2017 is non other than the Renault Zoe. Who will be the first FCF member to scrap a diesel and plump for one of those and lead the way?

https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new- ... e-250.html

Regards Neil
I've watched a few reviews of the Renault Zoe, and apart from the issue of battery purchase vs battery rental (something unique to the Renault) it does seem like a pretty decent Super Mini EV. As a car in the more general sense I think it's only "OK" though, nothing special. Watch a few reviews on Youtube and see what you think. I'm not sure that I would buy it, but at the price its certainly well up on my consideration and test drive list for a family car for daily commuting. Luggage space is not that great though if I remember right, and no 60/40 rear seat, which is a problem for me when I have a baby car seat in the back most of the time...

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CitroJim
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by CitroJim »

Stickyfinger wrote:How many chickens = 1x horse power ?
:rofl2: With a chicken powered vehicle you could have fried eggs on the way to work!

Seems the tide is already turning if this article in on the Beeb News Website is to be believed...

Points well made about the desperate attempts to meet diesel emissions rules and the difference between lab readings and real-world readings Simon...

I still want to know how bad (or otherwise) a 1.9TD is compared to the latest equivalent engine in the real world...

Nowadays, an electric car would be good for 99% of my needs but I can't possibly afford one. Simple as that. When I can get one for £5K with discounts and incentives I will but until then the diesel stays...

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Mandrake
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote: Nowadays, an electric car would be good for 99% of my needs but I can't possibly afford one. Simple as that. When I can get one for £5K with discounts and incentives I will but until then the diesel stays...
I'm in the same boat Jim - anything more than that I couldn't afford, so I will wait patiently until either S/H prices come down into this region or I am considerably better off financially than I am now. :-D

BTW, what delicious irony given my comment of VW being found out:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36548893

Perhaps VW have turned turned a new leaf after Dieselgate ? :lol: