Dump Your Deezel

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NewcastleFalcon
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Anyone like a chart?
from "The Demise of Deadly Diesel" by Chris Bryant 13/02/2017
https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articl ... dly-diesel

Image
Regards Neil

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white exec
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by white exec »

If all that is sound, then VAG are doing something at the better end of the spectrum.
No wonder many of the other manufacturers kept quiet during the VW debacle. They obviously knew these figures.

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Mandrake
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Mandrake »

I think those figures are averaged across each manufacturers lineup of cars, and there are dramatic differences between different models of car from the same manufacturer.

So while VW's average looks ok there were specific models that were way higher - over 8x if I recall correctly. And it was specific models that raised the eyre of regulators. VW also made some that had some of the lowest emissions hence their decent overall average.

But your point about other manufacturers still holds good - many of them were more guilty on average even if their worst models weren't as bad as VW's worst.

The real black eye for VW though was specific and deliberate defeat mechanisms where the ECU tried to detect an emissions test so it could "play nice" while many of the other manufacturers had no specific defeat mechanism, just poor on the road emissions through neglect rather than malice.

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NewcastleFalcon
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

The full report by the Transport and Environment lobby group entitled

"Dieselgate who? what? how? September 2016" is here. Nice cover of an iceberg with a blue VW badge on the visible part of the iceberg! If you skip to page 11 it lists the full "Dirty 50" list of Euro 6 individual models.

https://www.transportenvironment.org/si ... INAL_0.pdf

Page 23 considers these "defeat devices" employed by manufacturers and asserts that virtually all models in the "Dirty 50" use one or more of the following

1.Thermal window defeat device
2.Hot restart defeat device
3.Cycle detection defeat device.

Undoubtedly written from a particular point of view, but I've a feeling that their artwork on the cover is, in all probability, not far off the mark :-D

Regards Neil

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CitroJim
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by CitroJim »

Thanks for that Neil, It'll make some interesting reading when I have a bit of time to spare.. Love the title picture!

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bobins
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by bobins »

Going back to the potential problems of the extra strain on the electricity supply infrastructure, it would seem that OFGEM commissioned a report into the impact of 'mass' electric car charging. The report was published in December 2015 and identified potential problems with 32% of the UK supply network when 40%-70% of customers had EVs based on 3.5kw (16Amp) charging. However, they reckon that they can avoid the need to replace all the underground cabling (at least for now) if a smart charging "Esprit" system is used - Quote: "The Esprit system employs demand side management techniques to protect power networks from potential overload that might be caused by the simultaneous recharging of numerous EVs on the same substation feeder. It does so by instigating temporary curtailment of recharging on a rolling basis (typically, in this trial, for 15 minutes each) across the local cluster of EVs."
Much more info about the 'MyElectricAvenue' project can be found here: http://myelectricavenue.info/about-project
With the project summary report to be found here: http://myelectricavenue.info/sites/defa ... Report.pdf

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CitroJim
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by CitroJim »

bobins wrote:Quote: "The Esprit system employs demand side management techniques to protect power networks from potential overload that might be caused by the simultaneous recharging of numerous EVs on the same substation feeder. It does so by instigating temporary curtailment of recharging on a rolling basis (typically, in this trial, for 15 minutes each) across the local cluster of EVs."
Sounds like a variation of the good old "Load Shedding" technique to me :twisted:

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Mandrake
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Mandrake »

Glad to see people are already looking into how to manage this problem, before it becomes a problem.
Whilst there’s plenty of capacity to deliver power for EV charging across the UK, if the charging requirements are concentrated in small areas and during peak demand, local feeders can become overloaded.
Good to see that overall capacity should be fine and the issue at the moment is density - eg if there are too many EV's on a given substation charging at once.

I remain confident that the problem of building out grid capacity including last mile is a problem that can and will be solved in time. The main risk is if EV adoption is "too rapid" (as if that can be a bad thing with smog and pollution choked places like London!) however I think the uptake rate will match the ability to get infrastructure sorted.

Interestingly it looks like the newer rapid charging standards actually support "Power Line Communications" protocols that can talk back directly to the grid:

http://ukevse.org.uk/charge-points-chargers/
Please note that the Combo 2 plug is rated to deliver much higher power levels up to about 90kW and communicates with the vehicle and the grid (where possible) utilising Power Line Communications (PLC; see ISO15118-1).

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bobins
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by bobins »

Very interesting to see there's an ISO standard on EV charging with PLC 'grid' comms and that it dates (in that version) from 2013. I wonder if all current manufactured EVs are required to meet that (or similar) standards for high current smart charging with PLC capability ? It'd save an awful lot of digging up of roads if they did ! [-o<

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bobins
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by bobins »

Something I'd missed from the MyElectricAvenue 'About-project' page the first time I'd read it....
"My Electric Avenue aims to simulate a 2030 electricity network in order to provide essential learning about managing the strain on the electricity distribution network from the anticipated increased uptake of electric vehicles. It is also delivering a cost-effective solution to DNOs (electricity companies) that reduces the need for costly and disruptive electricity network reinforcement, allows a faster uptake of electric vehicles (EVs),...."

Does that imply that there could / would have been some form of restrictions placed on owning an EV in certain areas ? I appreciate that it's a little difficult stopping someone owning an EV if they're charging it off a 13amp plug, but the above does imply there could / would have been some form of restriction on ownership - even if it was at the level of restricting or slowing total sales of EVs in the UK. Or have I mis-read what they're implying ?

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by harryp »

The "Dirty Diesels" piece was informative. Begs the question, which was nicely avoided, as to why the testing labs are not prosecuted. They after all are the culprits, aided and abeted by vehicle manufacturers :?: Presumably the on going legal costs; another reason to do away with Law and replace with Justice? Sick to death of "ambulance chasing" and smart a..e lawers using so called loopholes - what does the Judicary actually get (massively) paid for?
Rant over.... :?

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Zelandeth
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Zelandeth »

Had the misfortune today to get stuck behind a Lexus on the A5 when it decided to start a DPF regen cycle. About five hours ago now and I can still taste it.

Does a good job of demonstrating that a DPF doesn't get rid of the crud...It just means it gets dumped somewhere else

Probably still good news for most cities though - MK is probably the exception as I'm sure thanks to the 70mph grid roads that we wind up with plenty of regens going on within the city...

Don't know what Lexus pump into the system though during the regen, but it certainly doesn't smell or taste like diesel when it gets blasted out the back end of the car.

Definitely seemed like a DPF regen though...No smoke before, smoked like a stone cold Deltic for about ten minutes, then clean as a whistle again afterwards. Just before we got to the dual carriageway again so I could escape of course!

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NewcastleFalcon
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Made a comment over on the electric vehicles thread on the very subject of DPF regeneration. The proposed new emissions tests are to take both cold starts and the DPF regeneration process into account, but quite how tough the targets are going to be or how they are going to be enforced could be another matter.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=56609&start=811

A temporary 'solution' could be the issuing of official gas masks, and public exclusion zones when the regen process is being performed :-D

Regards Neil

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CitroJim
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by CitroJim »

Zelandeth wrote: Does a good job of demonstrating that a DPF doesn't get rid of the crud...It just means it gets dumped somewhere else


Precisely :evil:

I once performed a regen under Lexia control on a C5... It was spectacular and rather bemusing...

Thought the bloody thing was going to catch alight given all the smoke and heat :lol:

Definitely not a long-term solution to the issue...

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white exec
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by white exec »

Regen is about as sensible as saving up all your domestic rubbish for a year, and then dumping it all at once.