Electric cars-Conversions

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Gibbo2286
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Tesco's are also well into the quick scan system now and adding more all the time, the problem with it is not the supermarket it's the customers reluctance to use them without having an assistant holding their hand.

As for blocking access it's their land and they should be able to do as they please with it, there will come a time when the like of internet companies will decide they want to dig up your garden to lay fibre, should they have a free hand to do so without your permission?

Ps. By the way who is 'Rapid charge Scotland?' All I can find is a twitter.

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Post by Mandrake »

The charger wasn't even on Tesco land Jim. It was in a neighbouring park and ride!

The issue is that the nearest transformer with sufficient output to supply the 50/100kW needed by the charger was just on the edge of Tesco land, so presumably the council needed permission to dig up the edge of Tesco's lot to lay cables from the charger to the transformer and Tesco is refusing even after the charger has been built!

Shameful behaviour really when the transformer doesn't belong to Tesco - it just happens to be on the edge of their land. Technically they are within their rights to refuse access to their ground but it is pretty poor behaviour especially if the council had agreed to pay for all the work to put the ground back in the state it was previously in.

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Post by CitroJim »

Indeed that is shameful :twisted:

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by lexi »

Aw! Tesco never played ball with EV freeloaders? EV guys are getting a free ride as it is. You want it all? Subsidies of 5k and costs of charger installations, plus free leccy? Then you are whining?
Who is paying for all this? The people who don't drive EV, that's who. The tax payer and ratepayers of the Councils. EV drivers are a tiny minority, so don't say you are paying your rates and taxes, as they are a drop in the ocean. Subsidised........... the story of Scotlands SNP Supported from Brussels and London :-D :rofl2:

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by elma »

It'll be over something else, Tesco are buggers. They own most of the roundabouts and slip roads by their stores and are known to play up if they don't get their way over things with the Local Authority.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

elma wrote:It'll be over something else, Tesco are buggers. They own most of the roundabouts and slip roads by their stores and are known to play up if they don't get their way over things with the Local Authority.


The reason they own the roundabouts and slip roads is because the councils forced them to provide them when they applied for permission to build the store......................councils call it 'planning gains' in truth it should be called blackmail.

It's no wonder Tesco and others like them are less than helpful when the council wants to encroach on their land.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote:Leaf: 4445mm overall 2700mm wheelbase
Zoe: 4084mm overall 2588 wheelbase
Xantia Hatch 4440 overall 2740 wheelbase

The Zoe looks pretty well identical to the Clio, with a slightly re-worked front end and lights.
Funny, I was stuck behind a Clio on the way to work today and I don't think it looks anything like a Zoe! About the same size yes, but the styling and overall body shape is very different...

This is the generation of Clio I was following this morning:

Image

Zoe looks very different to me!

Image

Personally I prefer the Clio styling, the Zoe styling comes dangerously close to "bubble car" for my liking ! :rofl2:

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Renault Zoe wiki fact
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe

The Renault Zoe was officially launched in the Norwegian market in April 2014, though retail deliveries began in late March. Unlike other European countries, the Zoe is sold in Norway with the battery pack included and there are no battery leasing options available.
Regards Neil

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Post by Mandrake »

That's interesting to see about the lack of battery lease in Norway Neil.

I'm a bit torn on the Zoe in general. On the one hand its great to see a Super Mini sized EV that is available in both 22kWh and 41kWh batteries, with a real world range on the order of 150 miles in the 41kWh version. Apart from the Ion it's the smallest EV on the UK market at the moment. It's a slightly odd looking car but acceptable in appearance so as not to frighten away potential buyers. It's smaller and less powerful than a Leaf (89bhp vs 107bhp in the Leaf) but has better range, so on paper a good choice for someone wanting a car not as big as a Leaf, and perhaps wanting to do longer journeys.

On the negatives - battery lease, (ugh!) some significant reports of reliability issues and slightly sub par build quality, (in other words, its a true French car! :lol: ) and a really odd choice not to support DC rapid charging, to my knowledge the only current BEV in the UK that does not support either Chademo or CCS DC 50kW rapid charging. (400 volts at 125 amps)

Instead it supports up to 43kW AC charging - but this requires 3 phase AC at up to 63 amps per phase to achieve. So in practice the vast majority of chargers won't charge a Zoe at anything like that speed as a true 43kW AC rapid charger isn't very common. Most rapid chargers support AC up to 11kW or sometimes 22kW and DC rapid charging at 50kW.

This means that more often than not a Zoe won't charge very fast on rapid chargers, and this slow "rapid" charging seems to be a recurring complaint over on speakev from Zoe owners. It also means the Zoe has to carry a big 43kW AC/DC charger on-board, which is a waste of space and weight. To minimise this effect the Zoe apparently makes use of the motor windings in the stationary car as a massive inductor to form part of the charging system! This also apparently leads to the Zoe putting back a lot of electrical noise onto the AC mains that during home charging can affect other equipment running at your house. Not good!

On the other hand the Leaf and Ion and most Japanese or US derived EV's support Chademo DC rapid charging - which is the most common rapid charging standard in the UK at the moment, with almost all chargers supporting 50kW. (Although the Ion can only charge at up to about 37kW due to its small battery, not sure what the Leaf goes up to) The competing European system is CCS which is less common in the UK but growing, and still far more common than true 43kW AC rapid chargers.

So in terms of rapid charging options the Zoe is the odd one out amongst all current UK EV's and it's rapid charging support is "less than ideal" shall we say ! Still, I'm glad it exists, the more choice and diversity in EV's the better, even if some of them are not what I would choose...

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

The Zoe sounds like a right disaster and one to be avoided on many counts Simon... Thanks for posting this as it's those hidden 'features' that make buying an EV such treacherous territory at the moment...

I wonder just how many Zoe owners are aware of the issues you raise here. Not many I suspect...
Mandrake wrote:in other words, its a true French car! :lol:
I did have to giggle wryly at that!

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Post by Mandrake »

I think "right disaster" is a bit strong Jim, but there are certainly things to consider with the Zoe. I'd say battery leasing and the use of AC rapid charging instead of DC would put me off, it may well be a great little car in other ways for all I know, I haven't been in one!

DC makes so much more sense for rapid charging, it's a no brainer really. You put the big bulky 50kW (or more in upcoming specs - up to 350kW!) AC/DC switch mode power supply in the street side cabinet where it belongs, the output of that is literally connected directly to the battery in the car, via a contactor in the car and another one in the charger, for safety. The car digitally communicates with the street charger and tells it what to do - "my current charge level is 40%, I want 360 volts at 85 amps for the moment please!".

The car monitors the charge process to make sure the charger does as instructed, if not it can open the contactor to protect the battery and abort the charge. No big bulky, heavy, heat producing charger in the car. (The car still retains a smaller on-board AC charger of either 3.6kW or 7.2kW for charging from your house or a Level 2 charger) This is the way every other EV with rapid charging does it, the Zoe is the only one that tries to do rapid charging using an on-board 43kW AC fed charger...

Funny triva - Chademo actually uses CAN bus signalling to talk to the charger. In some cars like the Leaf there are multiple independent CAN bus networks within the car (I think the Leaf has 3-4!) with one dedicated to talking to a rapid charger. In the Ion there is only one CAN bus in the car so when you plug into a rapid charger you are connecting that one global CAN bus to the charger! :lol: You wouldn't want malware in the Charger because theoretically it could use CAN bus messaging to take over or infect your car... :twisted:

The EU spec CCS rapid charging uses a different communications protocol - I think it's a derivative of the power line communications protocol - I think they designed it that way to eventually tie directly into the grid using full PLC communications to allow for things like plugged in cars acting as smart batteries on the grid that can return some power to the grid in times of peak usage.... (in theory - I don't think this is in operation in the UK at this time!)

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Post by CitroJim »

Mandrake wrote:I think "right disaster" is a bit strong Jim


Anything that puts a lot of noise back into the mains is a right disaster in my book Simon... It effectively prevents me enjoying one of my pastimes to the full - amateur radio.

You would never believe the mains-bourne rubbish about these days and it effectively wipes out any chance of weak-signal working on all bands up to 144MHz...

So, anything that adds to it is a disaster... It is a very serious problem indeed but as we amateurs are very much a minority nothing much is done..

Also, yes, DC charging is a no-brainer and having to carry a ruddy great charger around needlessly is pretty poor - especially when Renault seem to have gone against the grain somewhat in their approach.

Yes, I'd be worried about trusting the CAN bus with such a vital role too!!!

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Post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote:
Mandrake wrote:I think "right disaster" is a bit strong Jim


Anything that puts a lot of noise back into the mains is a right disaster in my book Simon... It effectively prevents me enjoying one of my pastimes to the full - amateur radio.

You would never believe the mains-bourne rubbish about these days and it effectively wipes out any chance of weak-signal working on all bands up to 144MHz...

So, anything that adds to it is a disaster... It is a very serious problem indeed but as we amateurs are very much a minority nothing much is done..

Also, yes, DC charging is a no-brainer and having to carry a ruddy great charger around needlessly is pretty poor - especially when Renault seem to have gone against the grain somewhat in their approach.
Ah yes of course. I meant it's not a disaster as an EV to use and drive, but I agree that if it puts interference back into the mains that is certainly bad for hams. I'm sure I've mentioned it before but I was once a ham as well, from the age of 12 to about 25, so long "retired" from hamship now unfortunately, and no longer have any radios! :lol: But I can still appreciate the issues of interference especially on HF bands. It was bad back in the 80's/90's when I was a ham, I shudder to think how bad it is these days especially with things like ADSL running over phone lines and computers in every imaginable device...

Here is one discussion about the noise being put back into the mains from Zoe's:

http://myrenaultzoe.com/index.php/topic ... wave-oven/

From the description it seems like switching hash in the audible few Khz region is somehow finding its way back into the mains and being reproduced by all sorts of devices including TV's and Microwaves! Which shouldn't be possible if a properly designed toroidal LC filter is fitted to the input... :?: Is there no CE / FCC approval of the charger in the Zoe ?? I wonder if electric car chargers are exempt... :roll:

Someone in that thread linked an interesting paper:

http://arrow.dit.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi ... gscheleart

DC rapid charging is the right way to do rapid charging, but Renault thought better. Normally the on-board AC charger in an EV is a completely separate unit to the drive inverter, and is rated at 3.6kW or 7.2kW typically in the majority of EV's, although a few like some Tesla's can go up to 11kW or 22kW using 3 phase AC. (400v 32 amp 3 phase) Any charging faster than this is done using DC supplied from the roadside charger.

Renault decided to cheat and make the drive inverter work backwards as a charger, using the windings in the motor (locked stationary) as part of the inductance of the switching inverter. It's described on the wikipedia page:
The car features a charging system called "Caméléon" (Chameleon) charger that allows the Zoe to be charged at any level of power, taking between 30 minutes and nine hours.[2] The particular type of grid system in parts of Norway with a different potential for the protective ground requires a special charger, which is included with all Zoes in Norway for summer 2015.[24]

In June 2015, Renault announced the introduction of a new, smaller electric motor called the R240, manufactured at its Cléon engine plant.[23] The new motor has the same power and torque that the Q210 unit[3] with an extended NEDC cycle range of 240 km (150 mi).[3] However, the Q210 would still be available as the R240 did not allow quick charging.[23]
Versions of the Zoe (R240) with the new physically smaller motor don't support Rapid charging at all, this is a direct consequence of using the motor as an integral part of the AC charger system and the new motor not being suitable for doing this. If it had used a conventional DC rapid charging system this wouldn't have been the case.

So not all versions of the Zoe even support rapid charging - even with a 150 mile range I wouldn't buy an EV without a rapid charging option, as being able to get back up to 80% in under 30 minutes is pretty much essential for any "driving out of range" situations.

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Post by CitroJim »

Gosh! That thread in the Zoe forum made interesting reading Simon :shock: That's some serious mains disturbance going on to cause those effects! I'm amazed they can get away with it as years back the power distribution authorities were really hot on anything that caused a bit of a shift of power factor and/or distortion. Seems they've gone soft now...

Here in my QTH I have S9+ of noise from Top-Band to 10, S7 on 2M and more birdies than in the Masters :evil: I can only work CW on 40 and that's only because of my 500Hz crystal filter.. SSB is right out...

Comparing the crap on my TS520 transceiver (yes, a vintage one with not a wonderfully good dynamic range!) against the same received crap on my old 1950s Eddystone Comms RX shows the Trio is also subject to cross and intermodulation products on the lower bands as a result... That's how strong it is...

It's slowly killing amateur radio in the UK.

Listening to the LF and MF bands on my old Eddystone the situation is even worse.. BBC R4 on LW and Radio 5 Live on MW are almost drowned out by the racket and they're all very strong signals here...

MW broadcasting is dying for that reason and I'm sure if it wasn't for the push to move all broadcasting to DAB something would have to be done about it as MW and LW are almost unusable for broadcasting now due to all the QRM... In fact making the LF and MF bands unusable is just what the government want as they are looking for any old excuse to close down MF and LF broadcasting for good...

Wow betide they ever try to close broadcasting on Band II but that's another controversy for another day!

I'm amazed I can still hear Anthorn on 60KHz well enough to keep my radio clocks in sync but at times even that struggles...

That should be a very strong signal with you Simon...

So if you were ever thinking of becoming active on the amateur bands again, take my advice and don't bother - you'll only be very disappointed and frustrated...

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by harryp »

Amazed that Tesco don't suffer a few unexplained power outages?