Electric vehicles-Conversions

This is the place for posts that don't fit into any other category.

Moderator: RichardW

harryp
Donor 2016
Posts: 668
Joined: 07 May 2011, 16:03
x 38

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by harryp »

Oh, and...

T&E said that without the robust new tests the car industry will not deploy the solution on an adequate scale and time frame.

Hang on there; "will not" deploy. Ha, they will if they're told to, or do we not govern our country anymore???

Think now is the time to put my high horse back into the stable :wink: :wink:

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 16144
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1638

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

The changes will make tests more representative of real-world driving by accounting for the higher emissions when engines are cold and when the particulate filters are cleaned, which were not covered in the original rules.
That particular task, which I have only ever had to do in one of Italy's finest light commercial vehicles...(where's the sarcasm emoticon?), should be only be carried out with an official gas mask, and a total exclusion zone of half a mile for the general public.

Regards Neil

User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7004
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 13:46
x 1317

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

I think we're now past the point where there will be any real attempt to enforce Euro 6 in real life (or anything even more stringent), except - maybe - for new ICE vehicles which absolutely need to remain ICE because of operational requirements (eg HGV recovery vehicles, and maybe the odd water-cannon) . . . by which time, hopefully, they will be in a distinct minority on the roads and so less of an overall problem.

The vehicle manufacturers have had, as you say, every opportunity to put ICE emissions right, and they haven't managed it. If they were given 'another chance', years of delay would ensue.

Another factor, finally, is public opinion. Individuals may be reticent about replacing their own cars, but they show every sign (by and large) of wanting other people to replace theirs. That's one of the tipping points. Few of us want to go on poisoning our children and ourselves.

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 43889
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1780

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

white exec wrote:That's one of the tipping points. Few of us want to go on poisoning our children and ourselves.


Very true... There are precedents and strong ones too where the public in general have strongly supported such actions... Leaded petrol, smoking, sugar and to a lesser extent alcohol and all without outright bans... If the message is well-aimed and backed up with hard facts it works.

The world is a far better place now only a minority of people smoke and it will be even better when few ICE vehicles pollute the air, especially buses which still stand out as terrible offenders.

The general public, given the right messages and steers, will do the job effectively...

User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7004
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 13:46
x 1317

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

CitroJim wrote:. . . especially buses which still stand out as terrible offenders.
A recent study in London showed - with chilling irony - that one of the most polluted hotspots was at bus stops.
Folk not boarding the bus (waiting for another) were left standing in the exhaust plume as the bus pulled away. :(

Gibbo2286
Donor 2020
Posts: 5186
Joined: 08 Jun 2011, 18:04
x 1103

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Reading your posts I wonder how the hell I've survived.

In my early life, the house had lead water pipes, we played with lead soldiers, we had coal fires, outside in the winter there were thick yellow smogs in which we walked to school/work because the buses couldn't run.

When I was fifteen I started work in the garage trade, worked in exhaust gas filled workshops and continued to do so well into my seventies and yet here I am at eighty two still fit and well.

Maybe it's evolution and I've become immune.

I'm off now for a walk before I take my old neighbour to Lidl for her weekly shop. :)

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 43889
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1780

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

Gibbo2286 wrote:Reading your posts I wonder how the hell I've survived.

In my early life, the house had lead water pipes, we played with lead soldiers, we had coal fires, outside in the winter there were thick yellow smogs in which we walked to school/work because the buses couldn't run.

When I was fifteen I started work in the garage trade, worked in exhaust gas filled workshops and continued to do so well into my seventies and yet here I am at eighty two still fit and well.

Maybe it's evolution and I've become immune.

I'm off now for a walk before I take my old neighbour to Lidl for her weekly shop. :)


I often wonder the same thing Gibbo...

My old dad almost chain-smoked Woodbines from 14 to 60 and he lived until he was nearly 93.

Even I spent my early engineering years swilling around in solvents and chemicals that have largely been banned now... And I heavily smoked at one time...

And here am I now a triathlete and soon to run a Half Marathon and tour 85 miles of the hilly bits of Somerset by pushbike...

I think in the end some of us are just bloody lucky and have good genes...

Online
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8395
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 399

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

white exec wrote: Another factor, finally, is public opinion. Individuals may be reticent about replacing their own cars, but they show every sign (by and large) of wanting other people to replace theirs. That's one of the tipping points. Few of us want to go on poisoning our children and ourselves.

Although the efficiency and the technology of EV's is my primary draw the pollution aspect certainly appeals to me too. Having a one year old son does make me think a bit harder about pollution than I did years ago, I certainly don't want to be dropping him off at school when he's 5 surrounded by a sea of idling Diesels... [-X Sadly I'm sure big 4x4 Soccer Mum Diesels will still be alive and well 4 years from now, but in 15 years from now ? Maybe not. We can only hope...

Online
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8395
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 399

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Not specifically an EV thing, but when is someone in a position of power going to address the ludicrous and fanciful NEDC (New European Driving Cycle) range and consumption figures quoted for cars throughout Europe ?

Here is the perfect example:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... -deceptive

The 30kWh 2016 Leaf - the NEDC quoted range for it is 250 kilometres or 155 miles. The EPA (US Environmental Protection Agency - at least until Trump neuters it) rating for the exact same car ? 107 miles. [-X

Which one is closer to reality ? The EPA rating. 107 miles is pretty much bang on the button of what real world drivers are getting from the 30kW Leaf. The 155 mile NEDC figure isn't just "a bit out there", it's a complete and utter fantasy that only a deluded tester would ever believe. [-X :roll:

In ICE cars the NEDC figure is just as laughable, but because ICE cars do such high miles per tank and the comparison of full tank range is not therefore a buying consideration anyway people might roll their eyes a bit about the outlandish claims but nobody really cares or even notices.

On an EV range is everything and it is one of the major selling points of one EV vs another in the buying decision, especially if you are trying to work out whether the EV you're thinking of can even make your commute at all!

How would you feel if you bought the 30kW Leaf based on an official range of 155 miles only to find it was really 107 miles (in summer!) and couldn't comfortably make your 100 mile commute in summer and couldn't make it at all in winter ? Not too chuffed I'd imagine! :evil:

Another example - if you look back to the launch of the i-Miev/Ion/C-Zero in Europe in 2010 it was widely touted as having an NEDC range per charge of 93 miles.... yeah right, in fantasy land maybe!! :lol: You can find review after review on Youtube and on websites parroting that 93 mile claim with not a single reviewer saying "well actually, in our testing we only managed 60 miles...". Not one. So much for journalistic integrity. [-X

What is the EPA range rating of the US version of the i-Miev ? (Which admittedly is a slightly wider and heavier than the EU version) 62 miles. Does that sound about right ? Yes - it's spot on, for real world driving. My rule of thumb for the Ion is 60 miles. I know from first hand experience that puttering about at 30-40mph I can manage about 70-75 miles on a charge, but also that doing a constant 70mph on the motorway I can only manage about 55 miles. At a constant 60mph I would probably get about 60-65 miles. Or a mix of 30mph and 70mph I would get about 65 miles. I can't see it possible ever getting higher than 75 miles in real world conditions.

So once again the NEDC figure of 93 miles is pure fantasy and the EPA figure of 62 miles is spot on. So why is this nonsense allowed to continue ? If you read the article I linked above it describes the test conditions of NEDC, which is a complete and utter joke. And from what I've read elsewhere the testers are also allowed to run the tyres at ultra high pressure, tape up all the panel gaps in the car and remove the wing mirrors - what the hell ? [-X

With comparatively short range EV's of today there needs to be range figures that are not only comparative between models, they need to reflect actual real world driving, not some testers fantasy.

One thing I give Tesla a lot of credit for is that they give the EPA figures in all markets including the EU/UK. This makes them not look as good as they could from a numbers point of view, but if they say you can get 230 miles on a charge, you will get more or less 230 miles from a charge in the real world. You won't get only 150 on a car that claims 230...

Whereas most other manufacturers will simply quote the ridiculous NEDC figures in Europe and quote the completely different EPA figure in the US for the exact same model of car.

Should we all just adopt EPA figures and pretend NEDC doesn't exist or should NEDC be thrown out completely and a new testing protocol put in its place that is actually representative of real world use ?

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 16144
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1638

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

From here http://offers.nissan.co.uk/GB/en/car-de ... fer-1.html

Nissans Large Print

100% ELECTRIC WITH RANGE UP TO 155 MILES*
With the Nissan LEAF 30kWh every full charge will give you a range of up to 155 miles (NEDC).

2P A MILE^
Going electric means you'll spend less on maintenance and enjoy far lower fuel costs thanks to the difference in electricity cost compared to petrol or diesel.

Nissan's small print....
From 2p per mile is based on (i) overnight electricity costs (British Gas standard tariff rates for a customer paying by direct debit as at 1st February 2016, assuming seven hours of charging at the night rate and one hour on the day rate), (ii) 95% charging efficiency, and (iii) a range of up to 124 miles per full charge for the 24kWh model (based on New European Driving Cycle) or a range of 155 miles per full charge for the 30kWh model (based on New European Driving Cycle). Range figures are obtained from laboratory testing and intended for comparisons between vehicles and may not reflect real driving results. Actual consumption and range may vary due to driving style, road condition, air-conditioning and other factors outside our control. Relates solely to the cost of the electricity used to charge the LEAF and takes no account of any other costs associated with running/owning the vehicle. Information correct at time of publishing.

*Based on New European Driving Cycle (NEDC). Range figures are obtained from laboratory testing and intended for comparisons between vehicles and may not reflect real driving results. Actual range may vary due to driving style, road condition, air conditioning and other factors outside of our control.
Regards Neil

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 43889
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1780

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

Don't you just love small print!

Online
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8395
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 399

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:From here http://offers.nissan.co.uk/GB/en/car-de ... fer-1.html

Nissan's small print....
From 2p per mile is based on (i) overnight electricity costs (British Gas standard tariff rates for a customer paying by direct debit as at 1st February 2016, assuming seven hours of charging at the night rate and one hour on the day rate), (ii) 95% charging efficiency, and (iii) a range of up to 124 miles per full charge for the 24kWh model (based on New European Driving Cycle) or a range of 155 miles per full charge for the 30kWh model (based on New European Driving Cycle). Range figures are obtained from laboratory testing and intended for comparisons between vehicles and may not reflect real driving results. Actual consumption and range may vary due to driving style, road condition, air-conditioning and other factors outside our control. Relates solely to the cost of the electricity used to charge the LEAF and takes no account of any other costs associated with running/owning the vehicle. Information correct at time of publishing.
Yesterday I bought a plug in digital kWh meter so that I can finally measure precisely how much I'm charging the Ion for miles travelled. The results from yesterday are as follows:

45.6 miles travelled total, 20 miles of that on 50-70 motorway, the rest in 30mph zones. 16 miles with 3 people and a baby in the car, the rest with 2 people. When I got home there was 2 bars left (out of 12) and 11 miles estimated range left. The heater had been on two clicks most of the time and I also had it running full blast for about 10 minutes while parked as I had over an hour wait in the car to pick someone up and finally couldn't stand sitting in the cold any longer... :lol:

Total charging measured was 12.67kWh, which means a consumption of 3.6 miles/kWh or 278 watt-hours/mile as measured at the charging socket in the house. (Thus including any charger/battery efficiency losses) At 13.4p/kWh that cost me £1.69, which is 3.7p/mile.

Given that I used the heater quite a bit and my original rough estimate for the car based on a 16kWh battery capacity and an average full charge range of 70 miles with no heater use was 3.5p/mile I'm pretty happy to get an actual measured 3.7p/mile with heater use. :) I would still expect it to go up quite a lot in the winter to the vicinity of 5p/mile both due to increased heater use and due to battery efficiency being lower at sub zero temperatures. (The motor and drive inverter don't care about the cold and work just as efficiently if not more when cold, but the battery chemistry doesn't work as well below freezing - roll on solid state batteries!)

Today is a bit warmer so I'm going to see what miles/kWh I can get without using the heater - also we will only be doing about 30 miles with two people in the car compared to yesterday where we went out to a birthday party after work as well.

For a bit of fun lets try to equate 12.67kWh to litres of petrol. You can compare the energy contained in a litre of petrol to electricity by comparing their energy content in MegaJoules, it turns out that 1 litre of petrol has the same chemical potential energy as 9.7kWh of electricity, so the amount of energy I used to drive 46 miles and warm the car a bit was equivalent to the amount of energy in 1.3 litres of petrol! :shock: Meanwhile the Xantia V6 would have used about 10.4 litres of petrol and cost about £12.80... Roughly halve that again for a 40MPG diesel and you're still looking at £6.40 and 5.1 litres of Diesel...

Another interesting way to look at it is how many kWh of energy is there in a 65 litre petrol tank - 65 x 9.7 = 630kWh!!!!! Given that you can do 240 miles in an EV with a 60kWh battery (1/10th of the energy stored in a 65 litre petrol tank) it really does show just how woefully inefficient an ICE power train is from fuel tank to wheel. :shock: It's no wonder you get your cabin heating for "free" in an ICE. :rofl2:
Last edited by Mandrake on 12 Apr 2017, 12:00, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 43889
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1780

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

Simon, most interesting figures :)

Online
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8395
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 399

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Yes indeed Jim. I have some even better results from yesterday too:

34.1 miles travelled, 20 miles of that on 50-70 motorway, 2 people in the car. No heater use at all. I drove a bit more conservatively (mainly avoiding full throttle except for motorway on ramps) but still not overly trying to be economic.

After getting back home I had 8 of 16 bars left and 38 miles of GOM range, so travelled + estimated range remaining = 72.1 miles, which is pretty much what the GOM typically says after a full charge.

Total charging was 7.7kWh which works out to 4.43 miles/kwh measured at the socket. At 13.4p/kWh that cost me £1.03, which works out to 3.0p/mile. :mrgreen:

Very happy with those results, especially when a good chunk of the journey was motorway. 3p/mile is actually less than my original estimates made before buying the car, although it quickly approaches 4p/mile (or higher no doubt) with heater use.

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 43889
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1780

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

That is really excellent Simon.. With the free tax too it's a winner all round...

Anyone want to swap a nice pretty blue 207 for a C0?