Electric cars-Conversions

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NewcastleFalcon
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

This looks interesting, leather seats too!

http://www.midlandmodernclassics.co.uk/ ... v/116108/0

location Derby. Monthly battery rental.

Regards Neil

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white exec
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

Now that is tempting! A lot of car for the money.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

white exec wrote:Now that is tempting! A lot of car for the money.
There are a few about and interestingly a the two I picked out for a closer look were in the "independant garage trade" as opposed to being "retained" within the main dealer franchise network.

I have just read a little piece from USA, about second hand EV's coming off lease and being put through auctions to the "trade" presumably where these independants get their stock from. The prices paid by the trade at auction for EV's allow them to put them on their forecourts and make a considerable margin on them.

The second-hand EV, as well as probably being low milage, "running gear" wise is also likely to be in well-maintained condition and a decent buy. It would be nice to be able to get the auction prices for them, because other than a bit of a valet, the second-hand independant is likely just to shove them on the forecourt straight off the auction anyway.

Regards Neil
Last edited by NewcastleFalcon on 20 Mar 2017, 07:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Mandrake
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

white exec wrote:Now that is tempting! A lot of car for the money.
Except....

All Renault Fluence's have a battery lease - which according to that ad starts at £77 per month.....payable forever.... [-X

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Mandrake wrote:
white exec wrote:Now that is tempting! A lot of car for the money.
Except....

All Renault Fluence's have a battery lease - which according to that ad starts at £77 per month.....payable forever.... [-X
The battery lease appears to be a bit of a minefield as these discussions on myrenaultzoe.com testify. Rather surprisingly the site has clocked up 5.6 million visits! For Zoe read Fluence, its Renault Finance just the same (RCI).

The battery leases in theory on change of ownership should be varied to the new owners requirements in terms of milage/price per month rather than be stuck with the first owners requirements which I presume is the £77/month quoted. Don't think Renault Dealers have much experience of second-hand EV's sold with battery leases, never mind the independants. Probably worth reading some of the cautionary tales here..

http://myrenaultzoe.com/index.php/topic ... ery-lease/
http://myrenaultzoe.com/index.php/topic ... -hand-zoe/

Regards Neil
Last edited by NewcastleFalcon on 20 Mar 2017, 16:51, edited 1 time in total.

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white exec
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

Something of a minefield indeed. £70pcm "for ever" may make sense in some circumstances; in others it won't.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Thought this was interesting:



and



Sure has been windy lately! :rofl2:

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

You've all noted the £77 per month bit but it's 'from' £77 per month, a bit like 'up to' in the internet market, doesn't really mean a lot and they don't say it's a fixed fee, it might/could be from £85 per month this time next year.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Gibbo2286 wrote:You've all noted the £77 per month bit but it's 'from' £77 per month, a bit like 'up to' in the internet market, doesn't really mean a lot and they don't say it's a fixed fee, it might/could be from £85 per month this time next year.
Whatever the actual amount is battery leasing is a bad idea, plain and simple.

The rational behind it was that in the beginning (2010'ish) batteries were very expensive, being the most expensive component in the whole car, and were predicted to have short life times. Both the up front cost and the fear of it failing and writing off the car put off buyers so Nissan and Renault came up with battery leasing. During the lease period they will replace the battery if it fails.

However even if you buy the car outright you still lease the battery, and that lease is on going! Legally you are obliged to continue to pay it even if you are not driving the car and so long as you are the legal owner of the car. The only way to get out of the lease agreement is to sell the car to someone who agrees to take over the lease, or sell back to a Nissan/Renault dealer. If the car is written off in an accident the insurance company has to settle the outstanding value of the battery to obtain ownership over it, however the owner is not able to buy out the lease in this fashion. (currently anyway)

The problems are many-fold. First of all, as the car ages and depreciates, the value of the car will and does drop like a stone. Second hand low mileage leafs with battery lease can be had for about £6000 because the required commitment for the lease puts off buyers. Why would you buy an old, cheap, high mileage car with the same battery lease agreement as a new one ? By the time the value of the car is comparable to a a couple of years lease the car might as well be scrap because nobody will buy it! Battery inclusive Leaf's are holding their resale value MUCH better, and are selling well in the 2nd hand market.

The second problem is that even if you "buy" a battery leased car outright the battery lease still shows up as a pending hire purchase repayment on your credit rating - for the entire duration that you own the car. Not good!

Finally, the problem that battery lease was designed to avoid doesn't really exist any more. The cost of manufacturing the batteries has tumbled in the last 6-7 years and will continue to do so. It costs roughly 1/3rd now to produce a battery than it did in 2010, and it is still continuing to improve. So it's still the most expensive single part of the car but it isn't the dominant cost of the car any more.

The other point is that batteries are proving to be a LOT more reliable and long lived than originally anticipated. So the fear of "what if the battery fails" starts to become more like "what if the sky falls on my head". Yeah you could be that unlucky person who has their battery fail. You could also have a massive failure in an ICE engine that writes the engine off completely too, and if you can't find a cheap second hand engine to put in it the car is written off too. And realistically, for those people who don't reside on frenchcarforum and do their own engine swaps between breakfast and dinner :lol: the car is probably written off even if there is a second hand engine available. Off it goes to the scrapyard.... so I don't see how this is particularly different with an EV. At some point in the future 3rd party and second hand spare parts from scrapped EV's will start to build up to the point it is now with ICE cars and sourcing parts to get old EV's repaired and back on the road won't be a big issue. Just at the moment there aren't enough second hand spares available.

The main thing you have to worry about with EV batteries using current Lithium Ion tech is range loss. All current batteries gradually lose capacity over miles and years, however it is not a predictable rate and varies a lot both from model to model, and from car to car due to different charging conditions.

In general the things that tend to shorten the life of the battery is frequent deep discharge, (running it down below about 20%) frequent use of rapid charging (slow or fast charging is much easier on the battery) and charging it up to full and leaving it sitting at full for weeks on end. (only a minor effect from this last one though) Temperature is also a major factor - excessive heat when either charging fast or putting out a lot of power to the motor shortens the life of the battery.

This is why Tesla's use liquid cooling/heating to manage the battery temperature, and get outstandingly long life. I've seen one Tesla belonging to blogger/youtuber James Cooke which has now done 66k miles, in that time his full charge range has dropped from 235 miles to 229 miles, barely a few percent - and he does a lot of super charging. So it just goes to show how good the battery life can be if it is thermally managed and uses a good battery chemistry.

On the other hand Leaf's (and Ion's) only use air cooling and first generation Leaf's are notorious for rapid battery capacity loss when used in very hot environments. (much hotter than the UK) The Ion's/C-Zeros seem to be holding their capacity a lot better than early Leaf's despite also only being air cooled, possibly due to use a quite different battery chemistry to the leaf. On the Ion the battery pack is enclosed and has a cooling fan to circulate air - this runs during charging or during driving if the battery exceeds a certain temperature. During rapid charging it actually turns the A/C on full blast and directs it into the battery compartment instead of the cabin and this probably helps prolong the battery life a lot too when frequently rapid charged.

In short, battery lease is something that has to, and will go away. Bad idea from the start and the whole rational for having it is rapidly going away as battery tech improves and manufacturing cost plummets.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

Mandrake wrote: Sure has been windy lately! :rofl2:
Nearly blew me off my bike yesterday!

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by RichardW »

Passed a Tesla on the M74 N Bound yesterday - they weren't too concerned about range, as they were bowling along at 70!

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by myglaren »

There was a test done on a Daewoo recently in Dagens Nyheter - the video shows the deterioration in range with increased speed in a practical test - driving from Stockholm to Gävle.

Note that a Swedish Mile (Mil) is 10 kilometers.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote:Passed a Tesla on the M74 N Bound yesterday - they weren't too concerned about range, as they were bowling along at 70!
Big battery, better aerodynamics! :lol:

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Mandrake wrote: Whatever the actual amount is battery leasing is a bad idea, plain and simple.
During the lease period they will replace the battery if it fails.
However even if you buy the car outright you still lease the battery, and that lease is on going!
The information on the Renault website is pretty sketchy unless I haven't found the right bit, and reading those discussions I linked to in my last post, I wouldn't have too high hopes of clarification walking into a Renault Dealership.

Bearing in mind and I am more than happy to be corrected, the "standard" way a Zoe will be sold will be with a battery lease. This probably applies whether you are offered a PCP (where you won't actually own either the car or the battery) or buy the car outright.
Current battery rental offers https://www.renault.co.uk/renault-finan ... y-hire.htm

Battery performance guaranteed to at least 75% of original capacity, or we’ll repair or replace it
If you decide to sell your ZOE, your obligation will cease once the new owner takes over the agreement
So I will pose a couple of questions.

If you take on a second-hand zoe/fluence that is 5 years old and enter into the required battery lease, and after 3 years in your ownership the capacity dips below 75% will the "repair or replace it" clause be activated?

and

If you take on a second-hand zoe/fluence that is 5 years old and enter into the required battery lease, and after 5 years in your ownership the capacity dips below 75% will the "repair or replace it" clause be activated?

ie does the rental arrangement effectively guarantee you a replacement battery if and when the time comes?

Probably a dumb question but sometimes you learn the most when you aren't afraid to ask dumb questions :-D

Regards Neil

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Peter.N. »

If the batteries/electronics generate that much heat could that not be directed to the cabin in the winter to help warm the car? If it was me I would probably use most of the battery capacity trying to keep warm. :oops:

Peter