Electric vehicles-Conversions

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van ordinaire
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by van ordinaire »

I think you'll find that horse racing pre-dates betting on the outome, at least in any organised way, by 100's, if not 1,000's of years.

Electric vehicles, especially delivery/service vans, buses & taxis will improve air quality in cities, but so would wholsale conversion to alternative fuels - & without the huge environmental impact.

I suppose that electric vehicles have only regained popularity quite recently because all those patents which GM supposedly bought & consigned to the back of some exec's desk drawer have expired.

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white exec
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

As Simon has already highlighted, has anyone actually worked through the environmental credentials of having to set up and deliver hydrogen to thousands of refuelling points? Crazy! This government isn't capable of running a transport cafe, let alone national transport and energy strategy. One foot in the past would be excusable, but both feet???

Sorry, but the world is moving on, and distribution of electrical energy is what it is now about, not having HGV tankers chugging around the country carrying gas, or anything else for that matter. Wake up, and stop pandering to old vested interests.

I despair.

mickeymoon

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Post by mickeymoon »

white exec wrote: This government isn't capable of running a transport cafe,
I disagree! How dare you insult the intelligence of those who run transport cafes

A bath. This government isn't capable of running a bath. Please stand corrected.

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Hell Razor5543
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Oi! Bath house attendants work very hard, I'll have you know!

mickeymoon

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Post by mickeymoon »

Now I stand corrected!

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Hell Razor5543
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Mind you, I do not know of any government who could organise a drinks outing to a brewery, even with said brewery offering advise (and a professional organiser!).

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

It was posted up by Simon many pages back now but this little video, if you can get over his shirt and tie and little zapper, should be compulsory viewing for the Transport Minister...maybe someone could put up a link to it in a response to the consultation on Electric Vehicles give them a bit of guidance :-D. The chance is here for anyone to respond.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... nch-16-17/



Regards Neil

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Hell Razor5543
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Well, according to the BBC news new hybrid cars will have a hike in vehicle excise duty (as may other green vehicles). This will only apply to new vehicles, so those who are currently driving green vehicles should not be affected.

Peter.N.
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Peter.N. »

I agree with the sentiments of that video, hydrogen my be a clean fuel but the energy that goes in to producing it probably isn't, unless its next to a hydroelectric plant, I never really could see the sense in it and if its not produced by hydrolysis its also using fossil fuel.

Peter

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white exec
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

Would be nice to know some real-world figures for the proportion of time that petrol hybrids actually spend running electric-only. My guess is that their ICEs are pretty active, and so taxing them as ICE vehicles is not unreasonable. If you have an exhaust pipe in operation, you should now be paying for it!

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Peter.N. wrote:I agree with the sentiments of that video,.....Peter
Yes probably before this thread was started, I carried with me the opinion that hydrogen and fuel cells would be the future of road transportation, and applauded the well-intentioned efforts made by Arnold Schwarzenegger in California to try to make this a reality. The idea of powering cars/trucks/buses with hydrogen and producing no waste apart from water itself is undoubtedly appealing.

The element of the equation in relation to the production and recycling of EV Batteries on a massive global scale, and resources used in sourcing the raw materials definitely needs consideration, alongside the generation of electricity at power plants. Maybe not considered in too much depth in the 10 minute video.

The current key component of EV Batteries Lithium, is "widely distributed" and not currently a retrictive factor, but battery technology is evolving all the time and cheaper more widely available materials, solid state batteries and the like with minimal degradation of the lithium metal anode and hence longer life, ease some of those concerns.

I like the point Chris made here, and also highlighted in the video.
white exec wrote: Sorry, but the world is moving on, and distribution of electrical energy is what it is now about, not having HGV tankers chugging around the country carrying gas, or anything else for that matter.
What is the point of making hydrogen by electrolysis, compressing it, and distributing it in HGV's to "filling stations" which also have to be equipped with specialised storage tanks and dispensing equipment, to be put into a large pressurised tank in a fuel cell vehicle, to be converted to elctricity to run an electric motor in a car. Wouldn't it be easier to have a battery in the car and charge it up from the "Grid" at home, or an easily-installed charging point.

Regards Neil

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

NewcastleFalcon wrote: What is the point of making hydrogen by electrolysis, compressing it, and distributing it in HGV's to "filling stations" which also have to be equipped with specialised storage tanks and dispensing equipment, to be put into a large pressurised tank in a fuel cell vehicle, to be converted to elctricity to run an electric motor in a car. Wouldn't it be easier to have a battery in the car and charge it up from the "Grid" at home, or an easily-installed charging point.
That in a nutshell is why Hydrogen cars will ultimately fail and BEV will prevail. And I say that as someone who was convinced 10 years ago that Hydrogen was the fuel of the future.

Sending mass-less electrons whizzing around the country via power lines is inherently more efficient than transporting physical goods - tankers full of hydrogen - around the country. (Even piping it via a gas pipe network similar, but separate to the current natural gas network isn't cost free thanks to friction)

And what is going to drive those tanks of Hydrogen around the country in the short to medium term ? Why, Diesel tankers of course... :roll:

Of course you could in theory send the electricity across the country via the grid and then electrolyse water "locally" at a facility in each town or city and then ship or pipe it a smaller distance, however you still have the last mile delivery to contend with and you now need facilities dotted everywhere with 3 phase AC, massive water tanks (getting their water from where ?) and storage tanks for the produced gas.

Compare that to BEV where all you need is a good supply of 3 phase AC and a few charging units to plug into cars and..... nothing else. No tanks, no compressors, no large supply of water etc.

Here in Blighty water is not in short supply to say the least, however imagine local Hydrogen generation in a dry area of the world such as parts of Australia - whole cities in Australia already go through water rationing in drier summers. (Also a problem in California!) If there already isn't enough water available to to water peoples lawns and you're far from the sea, how can you justify millions of gallons of water earmarked for electrolysis to generate Hydrogen ? Aint gonna happen in dry climates.

So then you're back electrolysis from sea water at the coastline and potentially long distance transport by tankers to get it inland. And that assumes you're not a dry, landlocked country somewhere like Africa! Nope, I really can't see it happening in any large scale.

To take electricity and water, perform electrolysis to generate Hydrogen at a very low efficiency, tanker and pipe that across the country, store it in massive tanks and supply it to cars, only for it to be converted back to electricity to run an electric motor only makes any sense so long as the energy density stored in the car exceeds pure BEV by a large margin. It barely does right now, as Hydrogen is not nearly as energy dense as petrol or diesel, and requires bulky heavy tanks to store it safely in compressed form.

Any practical Hydrogen car still needs a relatively large battery to act as a "buffer" from the fuel cell output and as a place for regeneration energy to be stored. This battery takes away space that could otherwise be used for Hydrogen storage. The space taken up by a high power fuel cell is not insignificant either.

As soon as a breakthrough such as the Sodium Solid State battery hits the shelves with 3x the energy density of current batteries, 10x the cycle life, rapid charging and is safe and inflammable, Hydrogen for cars is dead in the water, guaranteed. Its whole reason for existing will be undermined.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Well it looks like I've joined the EV bandwagon.... :)

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48988&p=525728#p525723

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Hell Razor5543
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

As the new VED will only affect new vehicles (and, as far as I can tell, only hybrids) that means you should not (currently, at least) be affected.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

I suppose if California went as you suggest to hydrogen, Californians could water their lawns with the exhaust from their cars. :-D