Electric vehicles-Conversions

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NewcastleFalcon
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Mandrake wrote: Just came across their review of the 2012 Peugeot Ion, also known as the Citroen C-Zero:



At £5000 for a 5 year old second hand one in good nick, I wonder if this could be the perfect "dip your toes in" introduction to small EV's as a second car ?
That is well worth a watch from start to finish, likeable people with a genuine enthusiasm, and quite inspires you to try to make your next vehicle an EV, and a very good review of that particular car.

I liked the EV man from Orkney, and his 600 mile journeys to deliver EV's to Customers. If you happen to be in the vicinity of Orkney on May 6th 2017, I reckon his little "festival", or maybe not so little festival, plugged at the end of the video would be well worth a visit.

Regards Neil

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote:
RichardW wrote:Currently only 3 C-Zeros for sale on autotrader - and one is new. This one has cost about £3/mile in depreciation!! Not exactly cost effective for the original owner....
That looks like a good buy to me and would suit my needs very admirably... tell me, id the price asked one for outright purchase or is there a monthly battery rental to consider as a part of the running costs?
And here is a Peugeot Ion for about the same price:

http://www2.autotrader.co.uk/classified ... 010&page=1

Interesting that this one has done 21k according to the dashboard and yet is being sold for about the same price as the C-Zero that has done 6k! Perhaps a sign that mileage is not a high depreciation factor in EV's ? Or just car dealer spin the lottery wheel pricing perhaps ? :lol:

From the listing "no battery lease", so no issue there Jim. 8 year battery guarantee valid until 2019. That's the first one I've seen with a picture of the boot open - I was worried that the boot would be about the size of a briefcase and not fit a baby pram/stroller without folding one half of the rear seat down but it looks like it might almost fit a folded up stroller without putting half the seat down. (Although to be honest even if I had to fold the right half of the rear seat down that would still be satisfactory for the daily commute)

Finance is £121pm presumably over 4-5 years. What's shocking is that I currently pay close to £100 a month for petrol AND £89 a month for a train season ticket to both get the boy to his gran each day and then get myself into work. The 300 miles of commuting I do a month in the car portion of the journey would cost about £4 in electricity so the reduction in petrol cost would pay for most of the HP to buy the car, and yearly maintenance costs would be significantly lower as well. :shock:

And if I had access to free parking at work I could also dispense with the £89/month train journey and then the finance for the car WOULD pay for itself and end up costing me less money per month, and give us a second car! Alas, I do not have access to free parking at work - the best I can do is £6.50 a day which is £130/month which is more than I pay for the train now.... dammit!! :lol:

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CitroJim
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

Gosh! That Ion is set at a very tempting price indeed Simon... If I was in the market for a small runabout then I'd not hesitate to go for that. It's come up about two years too late :(

I do know now, and thanks entirely to all the good information this thread has revealed that my next car purchase will be a small EV for sure...

But that won't be until Gabriel either ends up beyond economic repair or becomes uneconomic to run due to any massive increases in VED - and then I have a 207 to run until it too becomes uneconomic... If I can ever fix it :twisted:

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

I might be tempted by something like that but I've never really thought much about the practicalities.

I don't have a garage so it would sit on the driveway, what's needed for a charging point outside?

The longest drive I make in one day is currently just over 120 miles and I'd need to be sure to be able to get home without sweating on running out of charge as the lady I take has panic attacks at the drop of the hat. :)

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Peter.N. »

For a local 'runabout' as Jim says they would be ideal except that down here you are going up or down a hill most of the time, some of them quite steep, I suppose if it has good regenerative braking it might no be so bad, I would be interested in the experience of anyone who runs one in similar terrain.

My main problem is the annual journeys we make to the north of Scotland and north Yorkshire every year, I know they are improving the range all the time but you would need quite a few stops on those trips with present technology, assuming you can find a charging point that is available and works, whereas the 406 will do the Scotland trip on well less than a tankful of diesel.

We will have to see what happens in the future.

Peter

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Peter.N. wrote: My main problem is the annual journeys we make to the north of Scotland and north Yorkshire every year, I know they are improving the range all the time but you would need quite a few stops on those trips with present technology, assuming you can find a charging point that is available and works, whereas the 406 will do the Scotland trip on well less than a tankful of diesel.
You may have to "smell the flowers" a little on the journey Peter but not impossible!

If you haven't watched the video Simon posted up here's a link starting at the relevant point in the video where the guy from Orkney explains his EV journey back up and how he does it.

https://youtu.be/yErmoxpeNF8?t=630

Regards Neil

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

Yes, a long trip in an EV would be the perfect excuse to enjoy the journey in slow time and not rush... That I see as a definite benefit just as long as the charging points are in some lovely places rather than the skanky end of hideous service areas as many seem to be now...

Install them on NT properties and places of beauty I say so that you can enjoy your charging break rather than killing time in a dreary coffee shop in a horrid service station...

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

CitroJim wrote:Yes, a long trip in an EV would be the perfect excuse to enjoy the journey in slow time and not rush... That I see as a definite benefit just as long as the charging points are in some lovely places rather than the skanky end of hideous service areas as many seem to be now...
Now I like the idea of that, an alternative charging network for the connoisseur or bon viveur. I wonder what is the most scenic charging point in the UK? Got to be some in the Lake District with a dramatic backdrop behind!

They should maybe stick a few in the little car park at the top of Carter Bar on the Northumberland/Scotland border on the A68.

I expect the National Trust's chargers would be at the Shell Nitro + end of the charging scale though :)

Regards Neil

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Gibbo2286 wrote:I might be tempted by something like that but I've never really thought much about the practicalities.

I don't have a garage so it would sit on the driveway, what's needed for a charging point outside?
All EV's use outdoor waterproof connectors and are designed to charge outside in the rain without issues. Typically if you wanted fast charging you would get a wall box installed on an outside wall near the driveway off a separate 32A circuit breaker - this wall box also uses outdoor rated waterproof connectors similar to those you might find in caravan parks. (In fact you can fast charge most EV's from a higher output caravan park connector with the right adaptor cable) If you don't need fast charging you can get outdoor rated 13A sockets with rain hoods over them that can be used safely in the rain.

Or at a pinch you could plug into a 13A socket inside the house and pass the cable out through the window! Even with such a cable the connector at the car end is still a proper water proof connector.
The longest drive I make in one day is currently just over 120 miles and I'd need to be sure to be able to get home without sweating on running out of charge as the lady I take has panic attacks at the drop of the hat. :)
A Peugeot Ion is not the car for you then as it is a short range EV can only do 80 miles at most from a single charge. A mid range EV like the new Zoe or new Leaf's can do about 150 miles per charge and long range EV's (like Tesla's) can manage 250-300 miles from a charge.

Longer ranges are gradually trickling down from the high end models to the lower models, however I wonder if there won't be a maximum practical range for small EV's the size of an Ion just due to the fact that not everything scales linearly with the size of a car. (Just like its hard to scale large car ride quality down into a small car)

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Mandrake wrote: If you watch the video I posted above though the guy sitting in the back makes the excellent point that because battery technology is still in its infancy the manufacturing cost of the batteries has come WAY down in the 5 years since the car was originally made, and the battery cost is a large part of the materials cost of the new car.

So because it costs so much less to produce the battery now the lower new cost artificially pushes down the resale value of the old one, which would have stayed higher had the new cost not dropped so much. However once battery tech reaches a price plateau this artificial depression of resale prices will be reduced. On the other hand a replacement battery for an old car may now be cheaper than it would have been several years ago.

Now is definitely not the time to buy NEW EV's if you are price sensitive as battery prices will continue to drop significantly for at least another 5 years - let other more wealthy people take the arrows in the back and then swoop in to collect them when they are 5-10 years old and good value for money, just as we have always done. ;)
Here is some hard data on just how much the price of the battery has dropped in the last 5 years or so. Here is a review from when the Peugeot Ion first came out in 2010:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car ... eview.html

A generally favourable review, except for one massive sore point - the price! In fact it was so expensive at £28,995 that Peugeot initially only leased the car and didn't sell it outright!! It also mentions in the article that the cost of a replacement battery outside of the (fairly generous 8 year) battery warranty was £19,000 :shock: :shock:

Fast forward to today and the latest version of the Ion is on sale starting at £16,995 brand new, making the entire car cheaper new than a replacement battery in 2010!

So the irony is that although the replacement battery cost in 2010 was scary, with an 8 year battery warranty nobody actually had to pay for one until battery technology had progressed by another 8 years - at which time the cost of the battery must be down to just a few thousand given the entire car including battery is on sale for £16,995.

Things are moving very quickly indeed on the battery front, both in capacity and cost.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

A good point, about letting the folk with deep pockets take the hit in the early days - and then for the likes of ourselves to pop up at a suitable point! This also side-steps teething issues with some new models.

I remember when my conpany produced some of the very first high-quality digital still cameras, based on Canon and Minolta 5x5cm camera fronts, with a broadcast-quality CCD image chip in the back. Cost? A cool £5000+ for the camera. Who bought them? The RAF were the first, for digital aerial and other photography, followed by . . . estate agents! There's always someone. (Actually we didn't really expect them to sell at all, so pitched the price ludicrously high. This in itself attracted interest. A lesson there.)

Some "customers" are wary-wise though about newly launched products: "OK, we don't mind going second, but we don't want to be first . . . unless, of course, you're giving it to us, and picking up all the debugging and nuisance costs . . .". It's called beta-testing, and quite a game. Tesla has done this in an interesting way, effectively making almost all of his cars 'field-test', by asking their owners to accept remote monitoring of how the cars behave; clever.

Personally, I can't wait for a few years to pass by and for some good used EVs to become commonplace. There is the possibility that we could be taken by surprise by them: maybe they'll turn out to be so reliable and desirable (more so than ICE vehicles) that secondhand prices will remain buoyant. Who knows?

Like the idea of scenic and interesting re-charge points. I think that will happen. The installation of such is hardly difficult. Litter bins with power-points? (We do need some standardisation of charging points, intelligent, so that they automatically recognise the vehicle being connected, and do the other sort of charging automatically.)

Exciting, isn't it?

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

NewcastleFalcon wrote: That is well worth a watch from start to finish, likeable people with a genuine enthusiasm, and quite inspires you to try to make your next vehicle an EV, and a very good review of that particular car.

I liked the EV man from Orkney, and his 600 mile journeys to deliver EV's to Customers. If you happen to be in the vicinity of Orkney on May 6th 2017, I reckon his little "festival", or maybe not so little festival, plugged at the end of the video would be well worth a visit.
I had a look at his website and he has a lovely looking C-Zero for sale at the moment - slightly more at £6495 than the two Ion's I've seen but in excellent condition with a full service history and 10k on the clock, as well as in a rather nice "Raspberry" Red:

http://eco-cars.net/electriccarforsale.php?selproid=331#

There is a video walkthrough including a test drive as well:


Quite neat watching the power/regeneration meter during driving - reminds me of the vacuum economy meters of decades gone by... :lol:

Tempting! :)

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Peter.N. »

I shall be that way in June - but it means getting on the ferry. :(

Peter

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Peter.N. wrote:I shall be that way in June - but it means getting on the ferry. :(

Peter
I doubt he will still have it by then Peter - of his other C-Zero videos all were sold within a few months!

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

His base is just about as far away as you can get in the UK, but the perennial question of "Would you buy a used car from this person?", with Jonathan Porterfield my impression is "yes". I think he would make the purchase of an EV a very positive experience and testimonials such as this only confirm that view.
We have been thinking about taking the leap into the world of ev's . After talking to Jonathan extensively on the subject we decided to go for it. I don't think we would of done so quite as readily if it wasn't for Jonathan. His knowledge and enthusiasm for ev's is truly astonishing. We were totally reassured on every topic we asked. Jonathan is more than a good businessman. He is a genuinely honest person who is in my opinion someone who you can trust. Our ev has been delivered and every doubt we had has now been completely allayed. I would without doubt recommend Jonathan and eco-cars in a heartbeat to anyone considering buying an ev. The car itself fits my profession needs and that of my family. Stylish looks slick motoring and cheap running costs...a winner every time.
Regards Neil