Electric cars-Conversions

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NewcastleFalcon
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Two stories at Electrek https://electrek.co/

are linked in some way.

Firstly there is an article about Honda parthering with Hitachi to make electric motors, the other about a Europe wide partnership on charging stations.

https://electrek.co/2017/02/07/honda-hi ... le-motors/

https://electrek.co/2017/02/07/electric ... ks-europe/

Honda are one of the few automakers still pursuing fuel cell electric vehicles, and with Battery EV's and networks to support them being the order of the day, a suggestion that Honda may be hedging their bets with this move.

Regards Neil

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Have hydrogen fuel cell vehicles lost out to BEV's?

Well once the R&D shuts down, the game is just about up!

http://evobsession.com/samsung-sdi-clos ... batteries/

Next logical question

How long before ICE vehicles lose out to BEV's and car makers shut down their R&D into petrol and Diesel ICE?

Maybe a bit longer because the "Car Makers" will be a little more reluctant to write-off their investments in ICE, and want to shift their existing stocks, and utilise ICE manufacturing capacity, and production lines.

The BEV makers without such baggage could very well dominate the emerging market. With Gigafactory 1 not fully opereational and plans for gigafactory2 in Europe you would think that Tesla would have enough on their plate for now, but apparently not.

(Electrek.co)Tesla aims to launch in India as soon as this summer, says CEO Elon Musk

Regards Neil

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Honda's flagship fuel-cell model the Clarity, is also to have a BEV version the Electric Clarity, and a Plug-in Hybrid Version. More evidence of hedging of bets against a background of very slow development of a hydrogen refuelling network.

https://electrek.co/2016/04/21/honda-cl ... c-plug-in/

Toyota's flagship fuel cell model is the Mirai, but is having difficulty selling them even in the US, where much investment has been put into hydrogen refuelling stations but without much effect. Toyota also announced in November 2016 that they were appointing Akio Toyota, the company’s CEO and grandson of founder Kiichiro Toyoda, as President of a new ‘EV Business Planning’ department to steer the production of long range battery powered electric cars by 2020.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/07/toyota-l ... s-failing/

The other major Fuel Cell player is Hyundai, who also appear to be going with the current flow, and planning a range of BEV and Plug in Hybrids, while keeping a token hand in the Fuel Cell Vehicle "market" with one fuel cell model.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/16/hyundai- ... cars-2020/

Regards Neil

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
Mandrake wrote:
NewcastleFalcon wrote: ....it is as well that the prospective purchaser gets really genned up about the "offers" and what they entail.
After watching a few reviews I've kind of gone off the Zoe - even the new 41kWh version - it may be one of the cheapest EV's at the moment but it seems like it is a very basic entry level EV and not particularly good as a car in many ways. Here's one such review of the new 41kWh model which is very ambivalent:

Just watched the first one Simon, all adds a bit more useful knowledge and there's plenty more of the same out there. I think personally at this stage I would fit into the "timewaster" category so don't think I could walk into a Nissan or Renault showroom and book an extended test drive of an EV. Thinking about it though that's exactly what you would want to do...even when considering investing in a second hand EV.

Regards Neil
Just came across their review of the 2012 Peugeot Ion, also known as the Citroen C-Zero:



Keep in mind this is a 5 year old design and is most definitely a "short range" EV with a realistic range per charge of 80 miles in the summer and 60 miles in the winter, so it falls squarely into the "second car runabout" category not a primary vehicle, however this is about the same range (maybe slightly less) than the first generation 20kWh Zoe which also only managed 80 miles max, and from the review above it looks like it may be a lot nicer car in other regards.

For example remember they complained about even the basics in the Zoe, like the seats being very uncomfortable (even in the new 40kWh model) and the ride being skittish at the back, no such complaints here. They basically gave the new Zoe the thumbs down whereas the Ion gets a good thumbs up in the review, within the scope of what the car is.

At £5000 for a 5 year old second hand one in good nick, I wonder if this could be the perfect "dip your toes in" introduction to small EV's as a second car ?

It's clearly not designed to be a primary car with that short range however my daily commute is only 16 miles round trip, maybe 20 if I divert for groceries and errand running. Likewise it would be the perfect shopping basket to make the mile trip to get groceries without firing up a cold V6 for such a short journey. With a 16kWh battery it can fully charge over night from a 13A socket no bother so I wouldn't even need to install a fast charge socket at home. So I could see a car like that if it is a nice enough car in other regards replacing my daily use of the Xantia for both commute and shopping, leaving the Xantia as a weekend car for trips!

I had already been considering something like a C1 as a second car for short commutes, (and also trying to convince my other half to sit her driving test so I'm not chief taxi driver all the time!!) and a C1 would certainly have no issues with range being a petrol car, however the C1 is a rather small car in terms of boot size for fitting prams etc... I'd have to check the specs but it looks like the Ion/C-Zero is quite a bit longer bigger car than the C1 for about the same money, but with shorter range - maybe a better compromise for a short daily commute, and a way to get started in EV's, and so that I don't just end up with two polluting petrol cars instead of one ??

Being a Peugeot/Citroen I presume my Lexia would work with it for diagnostics - that would have the diagnostic side of the car covered too. :)

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

I can heartily recommend a C1 Simon... Excellent little cars and very, very frugal. I had one from new... I can't comment on the Lexia as I never had reason to even try connecting it...

It remains in my family even though it's no longer mine... It's Robyn's car now..

Electrically/electronically they are very simple. I believe they're not multiplexed...

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

One of my neighbours had a C1, loved it, until one day she nudged a bollard and got the edge of the wing stuck on the tyre, the cops came, breathalysed her.......................she doesn't drive now and the car's gone. :(

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote:I can heartily recommend a C1 Simon... Excellent little cars and very, very frugal. I had one from new... I can't comment on the Lexia as I never had reason to even try connecting it...

It remains in my family even though it's no longer mine... It's Robyn's car now..

Electrically/electronically they are very simple. I believe they're not multiplexed...
Hi Jim,

I was actually referring to plugging the Lexia into a C-Zero or Ion. As you know, diagnosing and doing DIY work on modern cars does somewhat require a diagnostic tool, so if the tool I already have would work on them that is bonus points for a Citroen or Peugeot EV rather than some other brand for which I would have no diagnostic tool. Being able to properly diagnose any faults or problems would take away some of the fear of the unknown of an EV, and in fact I could even use it to do a "health check" on a car I was potentially buying.

I'm sure a C1 is a great car but so long as I'm the only driver in the household it then just becomes a second car for me to drive that gives better MPG than the Xantia but at the expense of a lot less room and performance, and it is still a petrol car in a day and age where petrol prices keep increasing, and still has all the same maintenance items like oil and coolant changes, exhaust repairs and so on of an ICE car - it's just two conventional cars for me to maintain then instead of one! I've owned two petrol cars at once before and keeping them both maintained, warranted and on the road at once was a real pain!

But an EV as a second car appeals both as something that is theoretically even cheaper to run than a C1, cleaner running, cuts out a lot of the maintenance items of an ICE and gives a "toes in the water" early start to EV ownership, as I won't be able to afford a long range EV as my primary (or only) car for many years, probably at least 5-10 years, but I am impatient to get "into the game" so to speak... :) I love technology and waited for EV's for years and now feel a bit like the EV revolution is here and passing me by due to my current lack of funds.

I see EV's as the long term future of cars so to buy another small petrol car now seems to be an expedient (for MPG reasons) but not very forward looking action. Two years ago a car like a C1 was a no brainer but now a small second hand EV even a short range one that can cover the weekly commute and shopping trips is a serious contender for me.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by RichardW »

Currently only 3 C-Zeros for sale on autotrader - and one is new. This one has cost about £3/mile in depreciation!! Not exactly cost effective for the original owner....

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

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RichardW wrote:Currently only 3 C-Zeros for sale on autotrader - and one is new. This one has cost about £3/mile in depreciation!! Not exactly cost effective for the original owner....
What car is cost effective for the original owner though Richard - look at the depreciation on the XM from new! :rofl2: (For that matter look at my Xantia V6 - probably around £40k in 1997 money, sold to me for £450 16 years later by the original owner at 65k miles. How much did depreciation cost him there...)

Some sucker has to buy new cars of any description so that the rest of us can afford them second hand once they have depreciated... :lol:

If you watch the video I posted above though the guy sitting in the back makes the excellent point that because battery technology is still in its infancy the manufacturing cost of the batteries has come WAY down in the 5 years since the car was originally made, and the battery cost is a large part of the materials cost of the new car.

So because it costs so much less to produce the battery now the lower new cost artificially pushes down the resale value of the old one, which would have stayed higher had the new cost not dropped so much. However once battery tech reaches a price plateau this artificial depression of resale prices will be reduced. On the other hand a replacement battery for an old car may now be cheaper than it would have been several years ago.

Now is definitely not the time to buy NEW EV's if you are price sensitive as battery prices will continue to drop significantly for at least another 5 years - let other more wealthy people take the arrows in the back and then swoop in to collect them when they are 5-10 years old and good value for money, just as we have always done. ;)
Last edited by Mandrake on 11 Feb 2017, 13:32, edited 5 times in total.

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CitroJim
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

Sorry Simon, I must have mis-read a bit there about the C1... I blame just having returned from a parkrun and being cold!!!

I see our local Nissan Stealer is hawking 17 plate Leaves (is that the correct plural?) for £190 per month interest-free with a £5,000 deposit contribution...

Sounds good but I do note the Leaf is only a 24KWh machine...

The cost is not much more than a SquashedKai but a lot more than a Note or Pulsar...

I did giggle that free servicing is offered with the Leaf... Not much to offer is it :lol:

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

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RichardW wrote:Currently only 3 C-Zeros for sale on autotrader - and one is new. This one has cost about £3/mile in depreciation!! Not exactly cost effective for the original owner....
That looks like a good buy to me and would suit my needs very admirably... tell me, id the price asked one for outright purchase or is there a monthly battery rental to consider as a part of the running costs?

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

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RichardW wrote:Currently only 3 C-Zeros for sale on autotrader - and one is new. This one has cost about £3/mile in depreciation!! Not exactly cost effective for the original owner....
How many are registered in total in the UK I wonder ?

If there are quite a lot registered on the road and only a few for sale is that a good thing I wonder ? They did say in that video that the Ion/C-Zero was hard to get their hands on even to test - I wonder if that means not many were sold new or does it mean that not many people who bought them are selling them on ?

BTW interesting to note that it is RWD if the listing is to be believed. Tsk tsk Citroen! :lol: Will EV's usher in a return to RWD in small cars I wonder, where it has been more or less ousted for the last several decades ?

From what I've seen EV's come in RWD, FWD and AWD in most size categories depending on the engine layout and topology.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

RichardW wrote:Currently only 3 C-Zeros for sale on autotrader - and one is new. This one has cost about £3/mile in depreciation!! Not exactly cost effective for the original owner....
7 on leboncoin including this....

https://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/10747 ... tm?ca=12_s

Now I am sure this is where google translate comes into its own!

Regards Neil
`

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Post by Mandrake »

Can anyone remember that website that graphs UK car registrations over time by model ? I remember using it to find there were about 40 Xantia's V6's still MOT'ed and on the road but can't for the life of me remember or find the website.

I was curious to see what it shows for models like the C-Zero.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by RichardW »

Mandrake wrote:How many are registered in total in the UK I wonder ?
About 220 C-Zeros, 400 IONs and about 250 Mitsubishi I-MIEVs according to howmanyleft.co.uk

Certainly appears to be RWD on service.citroen