Electric vehicles-Conversions

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white exec
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

Wonderful.

Did check whether the Government Car Service had been handed over to G4S. It hasn't.
But there is a bit more to the PM Jag than meets the eye...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Ministerial_Car.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

MikeT wrote:
09 Dec 2017, 15:47
Just saw prime minister's questions and one of her party members, in patting themselves on the back for being global leaders in EV's asked Trees Dismay if she will pledge to forego her gas-guzzling Jaguar and swap it for an EV Jaguar in support of their great industry in the Midlands.

Her only response was "It's not my car".
So that's a no, then.


Well at least that's an honest answer, a bit different to what you usually get from politicians, it's not her car any more than Buck house is the queens.

Maybe she could buy American and get one of Elon Musk's cheapo Teslas on the taxpayer.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Looks like the Scottish government is getting a bit carried away in their efforts to one up Westminster. :roll:

Not only have they previously set a 2032 deadline for the phasing out of sales of new petrol and diesel cars (compared to 2040 for the UK government) they are now proposing to ban existing cars which don't meet certain "low emissions" guidelines from entering major city centres including Glasgow and Edinburgh from 2020, and are creating an additional 38 "low emissions zones" in many other small towns including Motherwell (where I live) Coatbridge (where I drive every day on the way to work) Lanark and Grangemouth (Hi Richard! :lol: ) and a load of other areas, all enforced as of 2023.

The following news story has a full list of affected areas:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scott ... h-11634327

Although it sounds like its primarily Diesels that will be affected the article does say that "polluting" petrol engines (probably older ones) may also fail the new requirements and thus suffer the same location bans as Diesels. :?

Now everyone here knows that I'm for the transition to EV's, and I was OK with the 2032 ban on new petrol/diesel car sales because that's still 15 years in the future and only affected new cars, rather than pulling existing cars off the road, so older cars would just continue their normal lifespan and then be phased out when they got old. 15 years is long enough for EV technology (mainly batteries, charging facilities and overall cost) to advance to the point where they meet the needs of the everyday driver, because EV's do not meet the needs of everyone at the moment, only a small subset of drivers, and certainly not at the cheap, affordable end of the market.

However I think 2020 and 2023 is way, way too soon to start banning existing cars from certain areas. :evil: The cost, range, and public charging facilities are just not there for widespread adoption yet and that is going to take at a bare minimum 5 years probably more like 10 years to reach maturity.

I think its quite likely that my Xantia V6 will fail whatever these "low emissions" requirements will be (I don't have any details on the actual way this is going to be measured, lets hope its not just a simplistic CO2/mile which is what got us into this Diesel mess in the first place) so as soon as 2 years from now I won't be able to drive it into Glasgow and 5 years from now I won't even be allowed to drive it in the small town that I live in! #-o So it could well be that regulations, not rust will be the end of my Xantia and I will be forced to get rid of it...

I can kind of see why you might ban polluting cars from major city centres like Glasgow - and I'm sort of OK with that happening fairly soon, but also banning them from 38 smaller towns and boroughs and so soon seems a bit extreme to me.

Anyone else think this is going to cause a major backlash if it goes through ? If they try to force everyone onto EV's before the technology is ready for the every day driver this is not going to end well.... :? A bit too much stick here and not enough carrot! How about a major effort to improve the public charging facilities first ? If the technology is there and there is a good business case for running costs, performance, low maintenance etc people will switch over without draconian and premature bans being needed... but inadequate public charging facilities is one thing that puts people off.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

Maybe out in the street, too, if national/international standards could be agreed...
https://www.pluglesspower.com/learn-about-plugless/
...or something like.
https://www.theverge.com/2015/7/29/9065 ... ging-brusa

and our friends at CTEK working at 'remote' maintenance charging too...
https://smartercharger.com/tag/smarter-charger/page/3/
If this last could be made to work over 20 metres or so, then some of us without garages, or mains not near the parked-up car, could keep conventional batteries charged.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

I don't think the Scottish government will actually ban your car from Glasgow Simon, they'll simply tax you for the pleasure as in London.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

That Plugless stuff is interesting Chris but I'm a bit surprised that a US offering says in its requirements that it needs a 240 volt supply, my experience in the US is that everywhere I've stayed has 110 volt mains.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

US houses have two 110v phases, effectively with a centre tapped neutral. If you connect across both phases, as large appliances like dryers and ovens do, you get 240v.

The normal wall sockets are 110v with some of the sockets in the house connecting to one of the phases (and neutral) and other sockets connecting to the other phase, and neutral.

A dedicated EV charger in the US is still 220v - 110v just can't supply the power needed to charge an EV at decent speeds. A standard US 110v plug isn't even sufficient to run a UK style 3kW kettle!

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by RichardW »

The SG consultation doc says Euro 4 petrol and E6 diesel - so yes the Xantia would be outlawed (E3 I think?). By 2023 I would think >90% of petrols will be E4, and probably 60-70% of diesels will be E6 (having been required for 8 years by then). All those towns will need a pretty large investment in CCTV / ANPR to 'police' the ban - and a load of paper pushers to send out the fines. I would guess that I will be into a E6 diesel by then, and may get a 1.2 Puretech Picasso for SWMBO next time, so covered there as well.

Unless BEVs get to 200+ range, come down in price to close to equivalent diesels, and can guarantee the battery to 150k+ miles, I'll still be burning fossil fuels at point of use I suspect....

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

According to this, Euro 6 only came into force in September 2014, so that can't be right as a cut off ?

https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/fu ... -standards

Euro 4 is January 2005.

Xantia is probably Euro 2 according to the same document. So if the car was certified under Euro 2 does that mean it will be banned even if the specific model of car performed well enough to meet later introduced Euro limits ? Or will it just be purely based on "your number plate says you have a Xantia V6 that was made when Euro 2 was in force so tough luck" ?

In other words is this effectively a hard cut off based on year of manufacture without consideration of specific models that might perform much better than the prevailing standards at the time ?

Bit of an ignominious end to the Xantia if this all comes to pass - possibly the first model of Citroen to be regulated off the road before it rusted away.... :lol:

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by RichardW »

Mandrake wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 13:57
According to this, Euro 6 only came into force in September 2014, so that can't be right as a cut off ?
Do you mean you think it's too recent? Pollutant of interest is NOX, which was only significantly reduced under E6 with advent of SCR / ad-blue tech. The consultation doc is here. Table 2 (p 20) gives the relevant standards:
table2.JPG
Mandrake wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 13:57

Xantia is probably Euro 2 according to the same document. So if the car was certified under Euro 2 does that mean it will be banned even if the specific model of car performed well enough to meet later introduced Euro limits ? Or will it just be purely based on "your number plate says you have a Xantia V6 that was made when Euro 2 was in force so tough luck" ?

In other words is this effectively a hard cut off based on year of manufacture without consideration of specific models that might perform much better than the prevailing standards at the time ?

Bit of an ignominious end to the Xantia if this all comes to pass - possibly the first model of Citroen to be regulated off the road before it rusted away.... :lol:


Basically, yes... although the Euro class is stated I think on the V5, so the date won't be hard and fast, but pretty sure the certified class at registration will be.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

This made me chuckle. :lol:



Moral of the story - don't have a tug of war with a very heavy (2400Kg) four wheel drive high power electric car even if you own a Toyota Landcruiser. :twisted:

That land cruiser owner was lucky he didn't damage the engine by letting the wheels turn the engine backwards towards the end... ?

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Post by white exec »

Crazy! That 4-cyl 3.0 D4D engine is nothing much to shout about (I have the 2.0 in our RAV4), apart from ruggedness and go-anywhere.
The ABS etc must have thrown a real wobbly during that, and brought on a Limp fit! Just as well it was done on a slippery surface. :shock:

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

I think it was more a comparison of traction than power - the Toyota still had enough power to turn the wheels forwards while being dragged backwards but couldn't get traction. I think the Tesla had studded winter tyres wile the Toyota didn't, which was the point of the test. Still amusing nevertheless and they're lucky they didn't damage one or both cars. As you say, good thing it was on snow not tarmac...!

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

So there are enough Tesla Model 3's out in the wild now for the independent reviews to start trickling in. Here is one that I think is a good no-nonsense review of "what is it like to live with as a car" that doesn't focus too much on the fact that its an EV. (He doesn't even discuss charging for example)



My thoughts are fairly similar to the reviewer -

My (and other people's) concerns about it being a sedan instead of a hatchback are mostly unjustified - I don't understand why they didn't just make it a hatchback like the Model S but, turns out that boot is still freaking huge for a sedan or hatchback for that matter. :shock: =D> The rear seats also fold flat, unlike the Model S where there is a large step up at the seats when folded down. And it still has the secret lift up compartment below the boot floor to cram a bit more stuff in like charging cables. And it has 60/40 split rear seats. (Which some EV's strangely omit. *COUGH* Zoe :twisted: )

So although it won't be quite as versatile as a hatchback you'll still get a lot of stuff in there and it wouldn't stop me from buying one as I'm sure the boot is still bigger than say my Xantia, which is all that I need! It has a "frunk" at the front but you'll only get about as much stuff in there as carry on luggage at an airport, so while nice it's not the huge frunk of the RWD Model S.

Many of the reviews I've seen praise the visibility out the front and sides - a low window line at the front and sides, (rare these days) a bonnet that slopes down and a lack of any instrument cluster bulge in front of the driver mean excellent visibility, say the reviews, and it does indeed look like it.

Although this reviewer didn't comment on it, some other reviewers like the one below have said that the visibility through the rear window is poor due to the window line being so high.



Ironically this is the case because the prototype Model 3's a year ago had a lower rear window line and smaller boot opening and everyone freaked out - "oh no, its a sedan! That opening looks tiny!" so they revised the rear end design of the car to make the boot opening much taller and wider to be comparable in size to a hatchback with the parcel tray sitting in place, and naturally this raised window line means rear visibility is worse. Can't have everything! :lol: I note that the rear visibility on my Ion is pretty poor as well, albeit for different reasons, mainly related to the massive headrests.

Of the reviews I've seen the car is almost universally liked, but with two criticisms that are brought up in pretty much every review - the poor ride quality and the centre console screen's practicality of controlling virtually everything while you're trying to drive.

On the ride front they only have steel sprung variants available at the moment (air suspension like the Model S coming "later") and most reviewers praised the handling as being excellent and better than the Model S, so I guess they have chosen to tune the suspension fairly tight for handling performance over ride. A bit disappointing, but not unprecedented in today's world where everyone seems to want ultimate cornering and doesn't care about ride to a large extent, unless it gets really awful... on the plus side, the tuning of the suspension is something that may well change with enough feedback from customers, and the air suspension option is likely to offer a better ride and adaptive damping.

The extremely minimalist interior and the do-everything centre screen that replaces both your instrument cluster and nearly all of your switchgear and controls is going to be deeply divisive I think - there will be those who will love it and those who will hate it. I have to give them props for trying something radically new though - the centre screen of the car and a few of the cars other subtle features and design points like the very unusual but clever door handles have a real feeling of innovation and willingness to think outside the box that we haven't seen since Citroen's heyday in the 50's to 70's where they didn't give a damn what anyone else was doing or what the norm was and just came up with their own innovative ideas like single spoked steering wheels, mushroom button brake pedals, "spade handle" handbrake coming out of the dashboard etc...

I'm a little on the fence about it myself. On the one hand the design and layout of the controls on the touchscreen is the best thought out centre console of any car I've seen to date, on the other hand they have stripped away so many physical controls and the normal instrument cluster to the point that you are totally and utterly reliant on this centre screen. You can do a single wipe of the wipers with a stalk on the steering wheel but to turn them onto permanent you have to use the touchscreen. (why ?) To adjust the steering wheel height and reach or the wing mirrors you use the two multi-purpose thumb wheels on the steering wheel - but first you have to go into the correct menu on the touch screen to activate those options. Not a good idea to do this while driving! Even opening the glovebox is a menu option on the touch screen, as is manually adjusting the cruise control speed. (You can activate cruise from a stalk but not adjust the speed from there...)

I can see this central screen being a huge distraction when trying to drive the car. Most reviewers have said that they don't mind glancing over to the screen to see their speed and other information that is normally shown in the instrument cluster, its having to touch it to operate certain functions needed while driving such as wipers that is the issue and what is distracting.

The small, chunky steering wheel gets mixed opinions - the reviewer in the first video above really liked the steering wheel and thought it felt great, while the second reviewer said he didn't like the steering wheel and thought it looked a bit cheap! :lol:

One other criticism I've seen is that the rear windows only wind about half way down - that is indeed an odd limitation, although there are many cars whose rear windows don't go all the way down, with Citroen's being cars that do tend to go right down at the rear when other cars more often don't.

It should also be pointed out that all the Model 3's being reviewed at the moment are the Long range (310 mile) units with the full interior option packs which include things like the glass panoramic roof etc and are fully specced out to around $55,000. The $35,000 entry model is yet to be reviewed and indeed yet to even be produced! So some of the things shown in the reviews won't be applicable to the poverty spec model when it eventually comes out...

So is the poverty spec version of this car for ~£30,000 when it comes to the UK in probably mid to late 2019 the car that will kickstart a wider adoption of EV's or is it still not what people are looking for, and will it be facing stiff competition by then ?

Would I buy one ? New, no of course not, can't afford it. :lol: Would I buy one at say 8-10 years old at a greatly reduced price ? Depending on the price yes I think I would! I can live with the fact that it's a sedan due to the large boot space, I can live with (and will probably grow to love) the minimal controls with centre screen, and any sort of Tesla has one huge advantage over any other EV - Tesla superchargers... If you do much travelling then that alone might be enough to sway you from some other brand of EV where you have to struggle with the unreliable, confusing and under provisioned general public charging network. (Although that may change by 2027 mind you...)

Another point in Tesla's favour is they do over-the-air software updates to the car which fix bugs and add major new features for free (such as adding automatic rain sensing wipers to the Model 3 a week ago, improvements to self driving features etc) and so far they are still still pushing out software updates to even the very oldest Model S's, so it's likely that you'll get at least 5-10 years worth of software updates to any Tesla. All other EV's that I'm aware of have to be taken into a dealer to have any software fixes manually applied.

I think Tesla have a winner on their hands here and by and large, it has lived up to their promises and they will be able to sell as many as they can make for quite a while. Not everybody's cup of tea I'm sure, but what is!

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Here's a fully charged interview with the CEO of Podpoint (a supplier of both public and home EV chargers) called "Barriers to EV adoption" that is a good watch.



The main chart that they're discussing I think I've posted here before, but its interesting to see it discussed. Naturally the CEO of an EV charging company is going to be bullish about the future of EV's so take it with a small grain of salt! :)