Electric cars-Conversions

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Mandrake
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

white exec wrote:
03 Dec 2017, 19:36
Sorry, Michel, but facts do tend to get in the way of glib opinion.
Thanks, Simon, for patiently detailing that so thoroughly.

Made a mistake in my post - apparently Hinkley point C is scheduled to start producing some power as early as 2023 but won't be completed and at full capacity for many years after that. The price is fixed at £92.50/MWh in 2023:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_e ... ource#BEIS

Even in 2015 when this chart was made wind was already undercutting it at an average of £62/MWh, and was beating even natural gas, but I know the figure has gone a long way down from that in the two years since and is still trending sharply downwards. It's quite remarkable when you think about it. :)

PV solar is also beating nuclear but isn't falling in cost as quickly as wind as PV needs theoretical breakthroughs to achieve greater efficiency (PV is hovering around 25% efficiency) while wind is mainly a mechanical engineering exercise where the cost is coming down from improved design and manufacturing.

Coal is the most expensive of all. Being too expensive has done more to get rid of coal than any emissions regulations!

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Michel
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Michel »

white exec wrote:
03 Dec 2017, 19:36
Sorry, Michel, but facts do tend to get in the way of glib opinion.
Thanks, Simon, for patiently detailing that so thoroughly.


Yes, he forgot to mention that two years ago offshore wind farm projects won governmet subsidies between £114 and £120 per megawatt hour. Somewhat dearer than Hinckley C.

He also forgot to mention that based on 2016 figures, offshore wind only provided power for 36% of the time it was available. So, it's currently expensive, and doesn't work when it's needed.

Facts do indeed get in the way of Simon's long, incorrect posts.

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Michel
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Michel »

Mandrake wrote:
03 Dec 2017, 20:01
Even in 2015 when this chart was made wind was already undercutting it at an average of £62/MWh, and was beating even natural gas, but I know the figure has gone a long way down from that in the two years since and is still trending sharply downwards. It's quite remarkable when you think about it. :)


It's quite remarkable that the govt subsidised it at £120/MWh then, don't you think?

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Michel wrote:
04 Dec 2017, 01:54
white exec wrote:
03 Dec 2017, 19:36
Sorry, Michel, but facts do tend to get in the way of glib opinion.
Thanks, Simon, for patiently detailing that so thoroughly.


Yes, he forgot to mention that two years ago offshore wind farm projects won governmet subsidies between £114 and £120 per megawatt hour. Somewhat dearer than Hinckley C.

He also forgot to mention that based on 2016 figures, offshore wind only provided power for 36% of the time it was available. So, it's currently expensive, and doesn't work when it's needed.

Facts do indeed get in the way of Simon's long, incorrect posts.

Your facts are out of date. Yes, two years ago in 2015 offshore wind was being guaranteed £120/MWh. Note, offshore wind - which is considerably more expensive (by over 50% in 2015) than onshore wind, which is what I was talking about. The 2015 table I linked to showed the clear price difference between offshore and onshore in 2015. Offshore wind is still in its infancy compared to onshore but is gaining ground quickly.

However this financial times article dated September 2017 shows that even the more expensive offshore wind is now being tendered at £60-£75/MWh:

https://www.ft.com/content/77563334-948 ... d2f0ebb7f0

Of anyone I think FT would be likely to get their numbers right. This means the tendered cost of offshore wind has fallen by a factor of two in only two years. This was kind of my whole point - it is dropping so quickly that anybody not paying attention is going to be left behind... If you just do a static analysis of how things are at one point in time and don't look at the trend lines, you can draw very erroneous conclusions.

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bobins
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by bobins »

To try and argue that nuclear shouldn't be an option due to its electricity unit costs is to miss the point by a mile. There is, actually, more to huge infrastructure costs like nuclear than how it impacts on your own pocket. For a very basic start - the ideal model of energy production for any country is a diverse form of energy production. That will include (currently) wind / hydro / nuclear / gas / solar / biomass / any other form of useable energy production you care to invent. Any single form of energy production is vulnerable to 'outages', be it calm days, drought, dull days, stormy days, plant faults, industrial unrest, etc, etc - that's why a sensible government favours diverse energy generation.
As for the wisdom of building Hinkley C - if you cherry pick the unit cost of production of electricity as your reason not to build it, then you miss the main points - it provides an awful lot of jobs (in construction, research, running / managing, and decommissioning), and it provides government leverage against foreign countries that have an interest in it. Every '£' that goes into a major infrastructure project like Hinkley isn't just wasted - the government gets a slice back in taxes from all the construction firms involved, it provides jobs (which give the Govt a payback in taxes and N.I.), and all the other knock-on effects. The only time the actual unit cost of electricity supply is a real problem (to a Govt.) is when it either threatens to cost any one government their leadership of the country or when it provokes civil unrest.
As I said - unit cost is but a small part of the large picture.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

I drive past three wind generators on most days, on Sunday I took an old friend to lunch and as we passed all were static, I said "Not much wind action today." She said "I suppose they've turned them off." :rofl2:

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

New London 'Electric' Black Cab
BBC News and many of the papers have reported a 'breakthrough' for London's black cabs - an Electric one.
TX5 hybrid.jpg
Well, environmentally and technically it's somewhat underwhelming. Far from being a BEV, it's a petrol-battery hybrid, but with only a (manufacturer rated) 70-mile range on battery, after which the petrol engine can deliver a further 300-400 miles.

So, with the average London black cab doing 200 miles a day, most of that daily work will be done on petrol. Terrific.

The company that makes these was bought by Geely (China) in 2013. Hopefully, the Chinese will get hold of this still-polluting lump, and offer it back to London (and elsewhere) re-thought and re-powered by 100% battery.

And this is Britain "leading the world" ? I despair.

More info on TX5's power unit here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TX5_(taxi)

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

We've covered this black cab a couple of times in this thread I think (?) although they are probably only actually hitting the streets just now.

The 70 mile electric range looks disappointing on paper but you have to contrast that to most plug in hybrids that realistically only do 25-30 miles in all electric mode. By those standards it is a revelation. It also supports all three forms of rapid charging - 22kW AC, 50kW CCS and 50kW Chademo, which is also unheard of. (I'm not aware of a single other car that has both CCS and Chademo - giving it maximum versatility of where to charge)

Most Taxi drivers only do about 100 miles per day supposedly, so with a lunch time stop for 20 minutes for a rapid charge you could do the whole day without using the petrol engine. And if you had a fare that would unexpectedly take you out of EV range you can't exactly sit at a rapid charger with the customer waiting with you - in that case the petrol engine will allow you to complete the unexpected journey.

You also have to keep in mind that by UK wide standards the Rapid charging facilities in London city are really poor. There are more Rapid chargers in North Lanarkshire at the moment than London city!

Would I prefer an all electric 200 mile+ BEV Taxi ? Of course. But this is a good stepping stone in the right direction that will be practical and usable in a London that has yet to roll out sufficient rapid charging stations even for private EV owners let alone Taxi fleets...

It will be considerably cheaper to run the car from charging it than filling it with petrol so a cost conscious Taxi driver will be automatically incentivised to use it in electric mode as much as possible which will help generate demand for charging point rollouts.

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Electric Vehicles thread-Birthday Eve!

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Yes, the old Electric Vehicles thread has its first birthday tommorow 7th December.

So what's the state of the Electric Car Revolution in the UK and elsewhere one year on?

Progressing nicely, or all talk and no significant action.

Hats off to Nissan, the Leaf is almost mainstream now in the UK, lots of people make it work. Pretty common on the roads round here. If you asked 100 people in the UK (as per "Pointless") to name an electric car the Leaf would come top of the pile. The Zoe while not being a "pointless" answer would be further down the list.

My impression is that advertising for Electric Vehicles is pretty non existant in my meanderings. If this is just because I dont watch TV anymore (I Player etc excluded) please correct me an post up a few examples on the "Electric Vehicles Adverts" thread!

Talk of DACIA producing a more "bargain basement" BEV. That sort of direction is more likely to precipitate major change, than the 1.9 sec 0-60 rich person's toys.

Oh dear I have linked to an article by the Daily Express! Other news sources are available :-D

Regards Neil

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Elon

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Time might be running out..................financially.
https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/why-t ... 994.html

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

white exec wrote:
05 Dec 2017, 12:44
New London 'Electric' Black Cab
BBC News and many of the papers have reported a 'breakthrough' for London's black cabs - an Electric one.
Here is some slightly more informative coverage including an interview with the cabby that has been trialling one for 6 weeks:

https://electrek.co/2017/12/07/london-n ... ic-reborn/

The impression I get is that the car itself is good but the rapid charging in London is totally inadequate to the task at the moment considering from next year only low emission vehicles can registered as new Taxis in London.

The reporter seems a bit confused because they said only zero emission vehicles can be registered as London Taxis from 2018 but a range extender EV is clearly not zero emissions if you let the battery run down and the petrol generator kick in... :roll:

It’s only zero emission if you keep it charged enough to stay within all electric range, which would probably require one or two rapid charges through the day with an 80 mile battery range.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

Several vehicle manufacturers have worked hard to portray their hydrids as EVs, notably Toyota. Not surprising the public (and even many journalists) think of these as electric vehicles. Zero emission they are not.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Miles away from the London Taxi declarations in relation to zero-emissions vehicles. Pheonix TAXI's from Blyth has been doing a bit of pioneering in EV Taxis for a number of years now, not out of the goodness of their heart, but because they can make it pay. Few spots today of their 25+ fleet.

http://www.phoenixtaxis.net/environment.html

regards neil

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

..and if you have mislaid your copy of the
"Nissan Insider"

Six of the largest and longest-established Nissan taxi fleets the UK – Phoenix Taxis in Blyth, Northumberland, C&C Taxis in Cornwall, Premier Cabs in Blackpool, 203020 Electric in Dundee, eConnect Cars in London and eCorporate Travel in Edinburgh – have surpassed three million miles between them.
Regards Neil

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by MikeT »

Just saw prime minister's questions and one of her party members, in patting themselves on the back for being global leaders in EV's asked Trees Dismay if she will pledge to forego her gas-guzzling Jaguar and swap it for an EV Jaguar in support of their great industry in the Midlands.

Her only response was "It's not my car".
So that's a no, then.