Electric vehicles-Conversions

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white exec
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

Agree that we're already "taxed per mile" simply because of the high level of tax incorporated into the pump price. Thirstier cars pay more per mile, and there's some environmental and social advantage in that: a decently progressive tax, levied to a large extent as per the driver's ability to pay.

Suggestions so far of tax per mile for BEVs seem simply to replicate that - the more you drive, the more you pay. Throw in some not-too-difficult tracking technology, and we have the basis for some sensible 'road pricing', which should be able to mop up congestion zones and have an impact on rush-hour issues.

All something not to get upset about, I would think.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Got an email today from Vespa re their new Vespa Elettrica scooter, haven't had time to look any further yet.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by myglaren »

MikeT wrote:
09 Nov 2017, 19:44
I've come to the conclusion the light grey haze mine emits must simply by all that soot converted to ash and now view it as good thing™ instead of a worry.
I estimate my DPF is much cleaner and more efficient than when it came to me and intend to look after it by giving it a good blow-through, particularly after a regen when the ash content would likely be it's most compacted.

I am presuming that the slight grey haze that mine produces when pushed hard is unburned diesel.

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white exec
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

Grey haze particularly visible at night, in headlights of the following car, under heavy acceleration.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

white exec wrote:
10 Nov 2017, 23:15
Grey haze particularly visible at night, in headlights of the following car, under heavy acceleration.
Unburned fuel usually caused by pump timing being 'late'.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by MikeT »

myglaren wrote:
10 Nov 2017, 18:45
MikeT wrote:
09 Nov 2017, 19:44
I've come to the conclusion the light grey haze mine emits must simply by all that soot converted to ash and now view it as good thing™ instead of a worry.
I estimate my DPF is much cleaner and more efficient than when it came to me and intend to look after it by giving it a good blow-through, particularly after a regen when the ash content would likely be it's most compacted.

I am presuming that the slight grey haze that mine produces when pushed hard is unburned diesel.


Soot?

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

So, Tesla has announced their first truck - an articulated lorry in UK speak:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42021713

I haven't had time to read everything announced but a few talking points:

* Will go into production in 2019 (so being Tesla, lets call that 2020 maybe 2021 as they have a lot on their plate :lol: )
* Can accelerate from 0-60mph in 20 seconds while pulling its maximum 80,000 pound load. Holy cow! Move aside Diesel! :shock: =D> 0-60mph in 5 seconds unloaded with just the cab.
* 500 miles of range on a single charge, when hauling a full 80,000 pound load at "highway speeds". :shock: =D>
* Cost ? Who knows...
* How long to charge such a (presumably) huge battery ? 400 miles of range added in 30 minutes using a Tesla "Megacharger". :lol:
* Drivers position in the middle instead of one side ?? :shock:

They also announced the 2nd generation Tesla Roadster:

* 620 miles of range on a single charge at "highway" speed. :shock:
* 200kWh battery pack.
* 0-100mph in 4.2 seconds. Yes zero to 100mph not 0-60. :shock: 0-60mph in 1.9 seconds. Fastest (acceleration) production car ever they're saying.
* Four wheel drive with one motor at the front (with a diff) and two at the rear allowing for controlled torque steering. (Similar to the Rimac concept one)
* 10,000 Nm of torque. :shock: :lol:
* Available in 2020. (So lets say 2021...)

They sure know how to push boundaries.... lets hope they deliver on their promises though and don't go bust from over extending themselves. :) They generally do, although they are nearly always behind schedule...

Some videos.

9 minute sound bite version compiled by the verge:



Full Tesla presentation:


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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by RichardW »

Some of those figures are pretty mind bending!!

On the truck battery... HGV 'efficiency' seems to be around 10MPG. Let's take that as 4 times that of your ION. You are getting 3-4miles / kWh, so truck is going to get 0.75-1 miles/kWh on a direct reverse comparison, that puts the battery at somewhere around 500kWh? This link suggests such a battery (in Li-Ion tech) may weight 23 tones, which doesn't leave a lot of space for Cargo!! If the Megacharger does 80% in 30 mins that gives a power output of around 800kW - say 1 MW including losses and the cooling, will need a fair sized cable off the grid, and a pretty big battery cooler :lol: Mind you, we've got a couple of 6MW motors here, they have to ring the grid up before they try and start them :shock:

Edit, forgot the link: https://qz.com/1131928/elon-musks-tesla ... d-to-know/

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote:
17 Nov 2017, 13:33
Some of those figures are pretty mind bending!!
You can say that again. :shock: :lol:
On the truck battery... HGV 'efficiency' seems to be around 10MPG. Let's take that as 4 times that of your ION. You are getting 3-4miles / kWh, so truck is going to get 0.75-1 miles/kWh on a direct reverse comparison, that puts the battery at somewhere around 500kWh? This link suggests such a battery (in Li-Ion tech) may weight 23 tones, which doesn't leave a lot of space for Cargo!!
I don't really follow your numbers here - how is my Ion 4x 10MPG ? :) On energy terms the Ion does the equivalent of 160MPG, and it is not the most efficient EV by any stretch. (Currently the crown goes to the Hyundai Ioniq, but the Tesla Model 3 is a very close 2nd)

Another factor you have to consider is that ICE trucks waste a huge amount of energy in braking slowing down their heavy loads. An EV truck will be able to regenerate a large portion of that kinetic energy (also gravitational potential energy when you descend a hill you just climbed) and they make a big deal about that in the presentation. The effect of strong regenerative braking is that as you increase the load the energy consumption doesn't go up proportionally to the increase in weight.

So for example if a cab alone weighs 10 tons and you add a 20 ton load to make it 30 tons total, the energy consumption of an ICE truck would go up by 3x but for an EV with strong regeneration it would go up much less, maybe by 1.5x depending on how good the regeneration is. It takes more energy to get rolling or climb a hill with a heavy load, but you get more regenerative energy back into the battery when you decelerate or descend a hill..

There's no way a 500kWh battery alone weighs 23 tons! :lol: That is misinformed speculation on the part of that article. How do I know ? Well the 100kWh battery in the Model S only weighs 550Kg including all the support/protection chassis and cooling system.... multiply that by 5 and you have about 2.5 tons worth of battery, even if you just stacked 5 Model S batteries using 2013 era battery tech, not 23 tons. Out by a factor of 10. :twisted:

Now tell me how heavy the motor, gearbox, differentials etc are in a comparable ICE big rig ? Pretty darn heavy I'd say, probably a couple of tons.

Also consider that the cab on its own can do 0-60mph in 5 seconds, but with an 80,000 pound additional load it takes 20 seconds. No way could a cab that weighed nearly 30 tons on its own do 0-60 in 5 seconds. :) Somebody smarter than me with maths could probably extrapolate the total weight of the cab based on the 5 second acceleration time for the cab and 20 seconds for cab+80,0000 pounds of load and work out the actual weight of the cab...I'd guess the cab weighs somewhere between 5 and 10 tons total.

Another little tid bit of information - the truck has 4 motors, one on each of the rear wheels - they're apparently using the exact same motor as that used in the Model 3 - just 4 of them. :lol: Pretty incredible when you think about it.

BTW if a 500kWh battery sounds huge for a truck - they announced that the new roadster has a 200kWh battery. :shock: Fitting 500kWh of battery into a cab for a semi-truck doesn't seem that hard to me, but 200kWh into a 2 door sports car seems almost unbelievable...
If the Megacharger does 80% in 30 mins that gives a power output of around 800kW - say 1 MW including losses and the cooling, will need a fair sized cable off the grid, and a pretty big battery cooler :lol: Mind you, we've got a couple of 6MW motors here, they have to ring the grid up before they try and start them :shock:
They talk about this in the presentation - the Megachargers are battery buffered with an onsite stationary battery array to buffer the load from the grid - so most of the 30 minute charge comes from the onsite batteries and the grid then replenishes those onsite batteries over many hours to spread the load. They're actually already doing exactly this at some of the very large supercharger sites.

The scale of some of this stuff is pretty hard to digest, that's for sure. :shock:

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsma ... d2871238c2
Creating a viable, 10-ton, battery-powered truck capable of hauling up to 60,000 pounds for hundreds of miles, with batteries that can be recharged in under an hour and with durability to last for years is a gamble that perhaps only Musk, a remarkably shrewd marketer, would want to undertake right now.
So the cab weighs about 10 tons in total and the 80,000 pound maximum load includes the cab itself ? That would make sense.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by harryp »

OK, unsure regarding the "pay per mile" scenario.... DVLA recon 30% of road vehicles are untaxed. This actually means that they cannot adequately police the system - no surprises there! So who is picking up the shortfall? Guess it has to be the poor law abiding motorist yet again.
It's high time the law (joke) actually penalised people who broke the law - in all aspects. OK build more prisons and pay for and train more police. Otherwise shut the f@@k up and pass no more laws - the Govt cannot even be bothered to properly enforce the ones we currently have [-X .
Rant over, but it does make me cross - all this waffling when they know that the end result will be nothing at all. Good posturing??

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

That '30% are untaxed' figure you quote seems extraordinarily high to me, does that include all the cars that are sorn or sitting in car dealerships waiting to be sold?

This from the news report:

"At least 755,000 untaxed vehicles are being driven around on Britain’s roads."

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

Worrying. So if 30% untaxed, how about un-MoT'd and un-insured ?

You'd have thought that with ANPR, this lot would have been caught up with by now.
How about going real Big Brother, and making it impossible to forecourt-refuel a vehicle without all/some of these? What would be the justification for not doing this?
After all, it's the rest of us that are paying for the evasion.
Discuss.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Michel »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
18 Nov 2017, 11:59
That '30% are untaxed' figure you quote seems extraordinarily high to me, does that include all the cars that are sorn or sitting in car dealerships waiting to be sold?

This from the news report:

"At least 755,000 untaxed vehicles are being driven around on Britain’s roads."
The news report is b0ll0cks, as usual.

It's 1.9% of vehicles, which includes those not declared SORN. It also declares RFL exempt vehicles where the owner hasn't "retaxed" them even if it costs zero.

Of the unlicensed vehicles identified in the survey:

52% had been unlicensed for 2 months or less
34% has changed hands since September 2016
51% were more than 10 years old
9% were less than 2 years old

I suspect a lot of this is down to the confusing way that cars change hands now and tax gets cancelled upon sale of a car.

Stats from the report itself, available from https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... stics-2017