Electric vehicles-Conversions

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Mandrake
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Michel wrote:
09 Nov 2017, 12:41
There was an article on bbc where they tested a 2009 Skoda diesel against a 1994 Mk3 Golf 1.8. In every measurement the diesel was far far cleaner than the old petrol car. I don't believe diesels are as bad as they are made out to be but I don't believe they're as clean as we were told either.

Both my cars are petrol. One is a 2.5 5-pot turbo. It is not quite as uneconomical as a V6 Xantia but it's not much better.

A V6 Xantia might produce more CO2 than a Diesel (inevitable, if it does less MPG, since CO2 is a "wanted" product of combustion) but I'll bet that the particulates and NOx are lower than a 194 horsepower Diesel... and probably HC and CO as well, in real world conditions not at the MOT test.

I've said it before, but too much importance is placed on CO2 - which is not a "pollutant", but a natural part of the carbon cycle, and not directly harmful to humans or other animals in moderate quantities. On the other hand particulates, NOx, HC and CO are all harmful pollutants and are all harmful to health in various ways. So Diesel engines optimised for the thing that didn't really matter (CO2) and produced more of the things that did matter.

Also Diesel vehicles still don't meet their emissions claims in real world driving and often exceed them by many times - as far as I've heard there has not been a similar scandal for Petrol engines, and you can be sure that after Dieselgate petrol engines would have been tested as well to see if the cheating issue went deeper than just Diesel.

Not that I'm saying driving a Petrol V6 is a good thing either - for 10 years I wanted a V6 Xantia and couldn't afford one, now that they are dirt cheap and I have a good one and also more recently have an EV as well I'm starting to feel guilty about driving the Xantia. :lol: I think it might well be my last petrol car, if both the Xantia and Ion hold out for enough years to tide me over for that mythical cheap, long range quick charging EV... :-D

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Michel
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Michel »

You may wish to read this real world test.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt ... ar_exhaust

Your Xantia probably produces more NOx and particulates I'm afraid...

I'd go electric if I could have a car that performed like my Ford for a similar cost. However, that will be many years into the future.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

CO2 was the thing that really mattered according to the 'global warming' alarmists, Nox and particulates are the new 'things that really matter' since someone extrapolated from a US report, a doubtful bit of work, that they contribute to 40k deaths a year, a figure that cannot in any way be substantiated.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Michel wrote:
09 Nov 2017, 16:49
You may wish to read this real world test.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt ... ar_exhaust

Your Xantia probably produces more NOx and particulates I'm afraid...
I don't think we can take much away from a test comparing only two cars...

NOx is produced during lean burning at high combustion temperatures. Diesels are lean burn by nature and have higher compression ratios than petrols which results in higher peak combustion temperatures as well as pressures. Petrol engines generally don't run extremely lean where NOx is produced. Simple as that really. Can a badly tuned petrol produce high NOx ? Possibly, but I doubt it's the norm and shouldn't be the case on a petrol flying through its emissions test like mine did.
I'd go electric if I could have a car that performed like my Ford for a similar cost. However, that will be many years into the future.

Yes, it's going to be a good few years yet, especially to get such a car down into the 2nd hand market, but it will happen and I will be waiting. In the meantime I have the little Ion for the daily commute and shopping/errand runs which does 90% of my driving and the Xantia for the load hauling and long holiday trips.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
09 Nov 2017, 16:54
CO2 was the thing that really mattered according to the 'global warming' alarmists, Nox and particulates are the new 'things that really matter' since someone extrapolated from a US report, a doubtful bit of work, that they contribute to 40k deaths a year, a figure that cannot in any way be substantiated.

CO2 affects global warming, but whether car CO2 has a significant effect on the natural fluctuations in CO2 levels and global temperatures that occur every few thousand years is debatable. It's not a noxious poison though, after all it is part of what makes up "plant food".... ;)

NOx and particulates on the other hand are poisons that directly harm peoples (and animals) health, but have less effect on global warming.

So which you believe is more important depends on whether you believe that we're responsible for global warming and we should do something to curb that, or whether you're more interested in breathing clean air for health reasons...

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Michel wrote:
09 Nov 2017, 16:49
You may wish to read this real world test.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt ... ar_exhaust

Your Xantia probably produces more NOx and particulates I'm afraid...
Skimming a bit further through the article I see this quote:
Molden explains that there is a huge range. While most petrol cars leave diesels far behind when it comes to NOx some new diesels are relatively clean and some are very dirty.
So even the article it admits in general Petrol's are far better than Diesels for NOx, it just happened to be the reverse for the two cars they compared.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

I watched that BBC programme when it was first shown, I thought it was a bit poor in that it demonstrated two cars from the same stable and from my experience not the cleanest of the modern diesels.

I've followed VW and Skoda diesels and often thought 'he must be running that on coal.' when they chuck out huge puffs of black smoke on acceleration.

The Ford Mondeo range do similar but I've never seen it from a modern PSA vehicle.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

This from Greenpeace, even they can't make their mind up.

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2017/0 ... k-linked/

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by myglaren »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
09 Nov 2017, 17:16
I watched that BBC programme when it was first shown, I thought it was a bit poor in that it demonstrated two cars from the same stable and from my experience not the cleanest of the modern diesels.

I've followed VW and Skoda diesels and often thought 'he must be running that on coal.' when they chuck out huge puffs of black smoke on acceleration.

The Ford Mondeo range do similar but I've never seen it from a modern PSA vehicle.


Quite normal to see most manufacturers diesels kicking out lots of black smoke - even the premium ones.
Only seen one modern Puegeot doing that - a 308 a couple of weeks ago. Otherwise PSA diesels seem far less smoky. Mine will produce a thin grey haze under hard acceleration but otherwise no sign of smoke.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by MikeT »

I've come to the conclusion the light grey haze mine emits must simply by all that soot converted to ash and now view it as good thing™ instead of a worry.
I estimate my DPF is much cleaner and more efficient than when it came to me and intend to look after it by giving it a good blow-through, particularly after a regen when the ash content would likely be it's most compacted.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

MikeT wrote:
09 Nov 2017, 19:44
I've come to the conclusion the light grey haze mine emits must simply by all that soot converted to ash and now view it as good thing™ instead of a worry.
I estimate my DPF is much cleaner and more efficient than when it came to me and intend to look after it by giving it a good blow-through, particularly after a regen when the ash content would likely be it's most compacted.

So it's a good thing that it's blasting ash out the tail pipe ? How is that ? :lol:

I thought DPF regen was supposed to burn the soot thoroughly, which should only result in gaseous output such as CO2, and if any ash is left as residue isn't that supposed to stay in the DPF until it's eventual replacement instead of being blasted out the tail pipe ?

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by MikeT »

Mandrake wrote:
10 Nov 2017, 10:04
MikeT wrote:
09 Nov 2017, 19:44
I've come to the conclusion the light grey haze mine emits must simply by all that soot converted to ash and now view it as good thing™ instead of a worry.
I estimate my DPF is much cleaner and more efficient than when it came to me and intend to look after it by giving it a good blow-through, particularly after a regen when the ash content would likely be it's most compacted.

So it's a good thing that it's blasting ash out the tail pipe ? How is that ? :lol:

I thought DPF regen was supposed to burn the soot thoroughly, which should only result in gaseous output such as CO2, and if any ash is left as residue isn't that supposed to stay in the DPF until it's eventual replacement instead of being blasted out the tail pipe ?


Well, for a start it gives all you petrol heads a feeling of superiority, doesn't it? I've seen the looks you give us, like your farts don't smell. :lol:

I think it's cerin that's supposed to stay in the filter and eventually clog it, requiring replacement.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

I think there's likely to be less ash from all the DPF exhausts in the country than you can find on the footpath outside any building with a smoking ban, where all the smokers congregate. :-D

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

I think the debate about whether petrol or diesel is "cleaner" is somewhat splitting hairs. Both are polluting, and have a negative effect on air quality in different ways. Neither is good for an urban environment.

I'm guessing that the car manufacturers (and the oil industry) are happy enough for petrol to be seen as a 'better' alternative in the current debate, as it allows them to carry on producing ICE's for several years more.

The push towards petrol hybrids (notably by Toyota and Mitsubishi) is also part of the same story, with advertising now being positively misleading (by omission) about the amount of time that such vehicles are capable of running on battery. What they are selling are essentially petrol vehicles, and the Chinese have this year told them they represent no meaningful solution to their serious urban air problem.

There were many varieties of dinosaur that once stomped this Earth, and I would guess that the then inhabitants didn't mind which of them ate them for lunch - they were all unwelcome.

Fossil fuel burning does have something of a future, but not on our streets in millions of engines. It needs to be combusted elsewhere, more efficiently and under strictly controlled conditions.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by MikeT »

That's what I keep thinking when I see/hear such debates, Chris. We've allowed ourselves to be divided over myopic viewpoints and forget there's a bigger picture to worry about. ie, As the scientists gather more data, we find that stop/start hybrids bring additional concerns over their engine/exhaust cooling effect. Then there's the tyre and brake wear pollutants, which electric vehicles will still emit.

Add in all the other causes of pollution and local pollution hotspots look like drops in the ocean. The idea of reducing pollution hotspots in the current manner we're being encouraged to is a sticking plaster at best and is being used against us for political ends imo.

I read a report recently that stated plastic and synthetics have contaminated our water supplies on a global scale and is being found in our tap water.