Electric vehicles-Conversions

This is the place for posts that don't fit into any other category.

Moderator: RichardW

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 43889
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1780

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etct

Post by CitroJim »

Michel wrote:
27 Jul 2017, 06:38
white exec wrote:
26 Jul 2017, 21:51

At the moment, there is no evidence that the British government is capable of anything..


Quite correct sir!



A very astute observation sir :roll: :twisted: :lol:

Gibbo2286
Donor 2020
Posts: 5186
Joined: 08 Jun 2011, 18:04
x 1103

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etct

Post by Gibbo2286 »

white exec wrote:
26 Jul 2017, 21:51
I think it's a marketing 'spoiler' by Toyota, to buy them extra time. Battery (or capacitor) development is one thing; defying the laws of physics/energy transfer is something else.

Interesting that BBC Breakfast's item on BEVs yesterday concentrated on the practical problem of thousands of garage/driveway-less street dwellers who would need to plug in overnight. A rather limp suggestion centred on uprated street light posts. Trouble is, not everyone has one of these outside...

Far more farsighted could be shallow-burying high-frequency cables in the road, not far from the kerb, and allowing any parked vehicle to inductively charge itself, wherever it was positioned. Extend this to buried cables along carriageways, and range of EVs would be hugely extended, and allow PSVs and HGVs to operate unhindered too.

BMW are reportedly already operating this with a fleet of parts-delivery trucks in Germany, where it is allowing BEV HGVs to operate round the clock.

All this does, however, require some central thinking and government coordination. At the moment, there is no evidence that the British government is capable of anything resembling this, or has any inclination even to explore it.


Just imagine the uproar from the travelling public if they start digging up the roads for such a scheme, they already scream blue murder if the telecoms/electrics/water companies have dig a hole to do an essential repair.

User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7004
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 13:46
x 1317

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

Shallow burying need not involve wholesale digging up, just slot cutting.

Gibbo2286
Donor 2020
Posts: 5186
Joined: 08 Jun 2011, 18:04
x 1103

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

white exec wrote:
27 Jul 2017, 09:56
Shallow burying need not involve wholesale digging up, just slot cutting.


How would shallow burying fit in with the current rules regarding the recommended depth of electric cables?

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8395
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 399

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
27 Jul 2017, 10:29
white exec wrote:
27 Jul 2017, 09:56
Shallow burying need not involve wholesale digging up, just slot cutting.


How would shallow burying fit in with the current rules regarding the recommended depth of electric cables?

Good question, however inductive charging would not work with deeply buried cables anyway. The power losses increase with inverse square law as the distance between the coil in the ground and the coil in the bottom of the car increase.

Personally I think inductive charging from the road for EV's is a fanciful and completely impractical idea, proposed by people without any real knowledge of how inductive charging works. It's fine for things like phones where the power used is so small (a few watts) and the phone can be resting directly on top of the charging mat - who cares that the efficiency is terrible.

However with a car the clearance between the bottom of the car and the surfaces of the road let alone a deeply buried cable is a major impediment, this will cause terrible charging efficiency compared to just plugging in, which completely negates the efficiency benefits of an EV. Why strive to build a 96% efficient EV if the inductive charging process with a realistic gap between the two coils is only 20-30% efficient ? Complete and utter waste of time. :roll:

Normal charging powers for an EV for overnight/car park charging are 3.6kW to 7.2kW. Rapid charging is 50kW+. That is a REALLY strong magnetic field to attempt to do via inductive charging.

You also wouldn't want to be using a pacemaker and subject to such a strong magnetic field. Likewise any magnetic media like hard drives inside the car would be at risk of being wiped, and you'd probably have residual magnetism left in the car body. (Not to mention the steel used in a car body would have high eddy current losses for the stray magnetic field which would further ruin the already terrible transfer efficiency)

Unfortunately it's just a really badly thought out idea. Inductive charging from under the road will go the way of Hydrogen Fuel cell cars I'm afraid - appealing idea on first thought and some prototypes will be made but the numbers and practicalities of implementing and using it just don't stack up when you get to actually engineering it!

User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7004
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 13:46
x 1317

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

Simon, you need to google 'wireless vehicle charging', 'inductive vehicle charging' etc etc.
There are huge numbers of web articles about this, involving charging EVs both while stationary and on the move.
BMW heavily involved in this, as are the Chinese to support their growing BEV bus programme.

What you say about inv.sq.law is true, but the experimentation being done is not with 50Hz, but with kHz. You'll recall that the original Mr Tesla established what happened to induction when the frequency was increased.

WPT (wireless power transfer) can now operate at an efficiency of over 90% over both small and larger distances. At the very least, it has the potential to make "on street" charging of residents' vehicles a straightforward affair.

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8395
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 399

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

So, that's the Tesla Model 3 officially released overnight UK time, complete with specs etc. Good coverage over at https://electrek.co/ of course.

Will we look back in 10-15 years and say that this was the model of EV that created an inflexion point towards widespread adoption and acceptance of EV's ? Quite possibly.

Or will it be remembered as an early, good quality EV that lead the way but was ultimately eclipsed by the massive manufacturing clout and lower prices of companies based in China ? Also quite possible! Or will we look back and laugh while everyone is still driving stinky Petrol and Diesel cars ? Hopefully not. :lol:

Tesla have been very coy about the specs including range until today so its good to finally see a full set of final specs:

https://electrek.co/2017/07/29/tesla-mo ... -revealed/

Currently all Model 3's are RWD only and they expect to start AWD production later, probably next year. Personally I'm not a big fan of high power RWD cars so if I were buying one I think I would wait for AWD - which has massive advantages for EV's (including increased regenerative braking) without the usual drawbacks found in an ICE as there is no mechanical centre differential. The Model 3 won't be out in the UK for probably another year anyway, by which time AWD should be available.

So two battery sizes - they don't quote what they are they just call it "Standard Battery" and "Long Range Battery", with standard being 220 miles EPA (eg real world, not the fanciful NEDC figure usually quoted in European markets) and Long range being 310 miles - which is quite impressive for a car that size and unmatched by either current or planned models from other marques. You do pay a $9000 premium for the larger battery which is significant, but not unrealistically so I think on a $35k car.

I would expect that the standard battery is about 60kWh and the long range battery about 75kWh to get the ranges they quote.

The standard battery RWD model will do 0-60 in 5.6 seconds and the long range battery in 5.1 seconds despite being significantly heavier. Top speed of 130 and 140mph respectively, not that it really matters outside of the Autobahn! :lol: So even the base level bog standard model will do 5.6 seconds - which is very quick indeed for a $35k family saloon, and you can be sure that higher spec and AWD variants that will come later will offer even better performance, if you want to pay that is.

So how about charging speeds ? Supercharging the Standard battery will add 130 miles of driving range per 30 minutes charging. On home charging using a standard dedicated 240v 32A EV wall charger it will add about 30 miles per hour of charging - exactly in line with other current EV's. (On a 3 pin plug it would be about 10 miles per hour)

The Long range battery will supercharge at 170 miles of range added per 30 minute charge, so significantly faster, (bigger batteries can charge at a higher rate) and they say 37 miles of range per hour at 240v 40a at home - however in the UK 32 amps is the highest we can charge at at home so here it would still only be 30 miles per hour charging at home.

The weight figure I thought was quite impressive - the larger Model S is a really heavy car. It ranges between 1961Kg for the very cheapest Model S 60 to 2250Kg for the top of the line P100D, and some option packs increase that even further, and of course the Model X is heavier again, and is between 2300Kg and 2500Kg. :shock: (Remind me again why people think its a good idea to drive around in massive SUV's ?)

Compared to these the Standard battery version of the Model 3 is a featherweight at 1610Kg, despite the battery weight almost certainly being several hundred Kg. To put this into perspective, a "Citroën C5 X7 Saloon with 2.0 BlueHDi 16V Exclusive (150bhp) (Techno Pack)" is 1615Kg, so this completely blows out of the water the idea that EV's are inherently a lot heaver than ICE cars of a comparable size and spec. And keep in mind that the Model 3 is doing 0-60 in 5.6 seconds while the C5 X7 2.0 is doing it in 9.1 seconds. :lol:

Not a fair comparison with a 2 litre engine I hear you say - so lets look at the top spec C5 X7 - the 3.0 HDi V6 turbo diesel. This has 240 bhp, still only does 0-60 in 7.6 seconds, and now weighs 1766Kg...

The Long range version of the Model 3 weighs 1730Kg - an extra 120Kg over the Standard model, but still lighter than the 3.0 HDi V6, and it now does 0-60 in 5.1 seconds, and can do 310 miles per charge.

Somehow I think the Model 3 is going to do well. :) The one sticking point for me, and I suspect many other people is going to be the single centre screen with no traditional instrument cluster. :? They are trying to make out that this is innovative, but it's really just a cost cutting measure. They could have implemented a heads up display projected onto the glass (there were rumours they would) but chose not to no doubt to cut costs. I suspect its an option that will eventually appear though!

So what do others think of the Model 3 reveal ? Big deal or a flash in the pan ?

User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7004
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 13:46
x 1317

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

It looks excellent, and in that price bracket (likely $35k = £35k for the UK?) it should sell well.
Agree, Simon, the AWD version would be worth waiting for - and might be in greater demand in the more savvy UK than the US.
Getting there!

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8395
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 399

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

$35k US will be excluding sales tax as US prices always exclude it since different states have different sales tax, and a UK sale price would have to include VAT so yes, I'd say it would be something like £35k including VAT. Since it won't be here for at least a year it's hard to know what the launch price here might be.

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8395
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 399

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Drat. While LHD international versions of the Model 3 should be out in late 2018, it looks like RHD blighty might have to wait until 2019. :(

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/support/mod ... edirect=no
"When will international deliveries begin?
Every country has its own set of rules and regulations, which means that we effectively must build a different car for different markets. This means international Model 3 deliveries will begin in late 2018, contingent upon regulatory approvals, staring with left-hand drive markets, followed by right-hand drive markets in 2019. We wish we could do all this faster and get you your Model 3 right away. No action is required from international reservation holders now. We will contact you closer to the start of production for your country.

Gibbo2286
Donor 2020
Posts: 5186
Joined: 08 Jun 2011, 18:04
x 1103

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Nothing new in this game, :) borrowed these pics from the Birmingham History site.
I remember these from my youth.
Attachments
city of birm dust cart.jpg
electric refuse vehicle.jpg

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 43889
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1780

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

I bet those lovely old dustcarts are a lot quieter than the hideously and jarringly noisy rotten things we have today...

I hate the bloody things...

Is it me or does the would seem a lot noisier these days? I find it most unpleasant and stressful.

User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7004
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 13:46
x 1317

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by white exec »

I love the way those modest production run vehicles got by with body panels only curved in one plane! IIRC, Dennis did similar.

Agree, Jim, what nastier than noisy, smelly, vibrating diesels, working their way round residential streets and town centres, while only covering tiny mileages, even to the depot? I'm sure they'll start to disappear soon, on the heels of new electric buses.

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 43889
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1780

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

white exec wrote:
30 Jul 2017, 12:24
Agree, Jim, what nastier than noisy, smelly, vibrating diesels, working their way round residential streets and town centres, while only covering tiny mileages, even to the depot? I'm sure they'll start to disappear soon, on the heels of new electric buses.


I certainly hope so Chris! It can't come soon enough for me...

User avatar
myglaren
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 19916
Joined: 02 Mar 2008, 14:30
x 1569

Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by myglaren »

About the only noise we have to endure is the weekly bin collection that takes about ten minutes for the street.

I am never here to hear it so it is a rather moot point.

Otherwise very quiet. and less than a mile from the A1M and two miles from the A19.
Six miles from Newcastle airport.