Electric cars-Conversions

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Mandrake
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

MikeT wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 11:50
According to Defra, in 2015 Private cars account for appx one third the roadside concentration of NOx pollutants in London. HGV's, LGV's, buses and taxis create the majority. This (appx 60%) is aside from the NOx pollutants that drift in the air from outlying sources.

ETA: Which by my approximation means private cars contribute about 18% NOx emissions in London.

https://consult.defra.gov.uk/airquality ... 20Plan.pdf

Interesting, I suppose it depends on how you measure it, (why only measure private cars and exclude commercial vehicles, most of which are Diesel ?) but the same report you linked also says:
14.Although non-transport sources of NOx are considerable contributors (Figure 2) road
transport is responsible for some 80% of NOx concentrations at roadside, with diesel
vehicles the largest source in these local areas of greatest concern (Figures 3a; 3b and
3c).
11 This is due to both the significant growth in vehicle numbers, particularly diesel
vehicles, and improvements in real world testing showing that laboratory test-based
emission standards have not delivered expected reductions under real world driving
conditions (see also Section 6).
So clearly there is a "hot spot" issue as I was saying earlier where the concentrations of NOx at the roadside are a lot higher than the average across the whole of London. And the roadside is where a lot of people spend a lot of their time, whether pedestrians or commuters.

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CitroJim
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

I think I'd better hang on to my Activa then ;)

Somehow I don't think the forum would ever forgive me if I parted with it. Ditto Zel if I ever parted with Gabriel...

elma
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by elma »

Up to you at the end of the day Jim, all that matters is would you forgive yourself?

I'm really quite upset at the ifhs spheres thread.
I think I'll be parting with my Xantia next summer when I've enjoyed it in good shape for a few months.

Its a stretch for me to run an old V6 anyway, more hassle to go with it I do not need.

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Mandrake
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Whoops:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ce-adviser
The former chief scientific adviser has admitted it was wrong to cut fuel duty on diesel vehicles after being hoodwinked by the car industry, as the mayor of London launched a crackdown on vehicle pollution.

David King, who until last week served Labour and Tory governments as special representative for climate change, said he was misled by carmakers over the amount of poisonous nitrogen oxides (NOx) diesel cars would emit on the road.
He said the government at the time wanted to encourage more people to drive diesel cars because they were said to emit less carbon dioxide than petrol vehicles. He said he was aware of warnings that diesel vehicles produced more toxic nitrogen dioxide, but he and the government had wrongly assumed this could be controlled by new technology and European regulations.
If only the governments would admit past mistakes instead of ex-advisers...

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CitroJim
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

elma wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 13:28
Up to you at the end of the day Jim, all that matters is would you forgive yourself?


That's an easy one James... No. I know that as I've never forgiven myself for ever parting with my 205GTi...

I have more hassle with my 207 than I do with my Xantias...

MikeT
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by MikeT »

Mandrake wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 12:11
MikeT wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 11:50
According to Defra, in 2015 Private cars account for appx one third the roadside concentration of NOx pollutants in London. HGV's, LGV's, buses and taxis create the majority. This (appx 60%) is aside from the NOx pollutants that drift in the air from outlying sources.

ETA: Which by my approximation means private cars contribute about 18% NOx emissions in London.

https://consult.defra.gov.uk/airquality ... 20Plan.pdf

Interesting, I suppose it depends on how you measure it, (why only measure private cars and exclude commercial vehicles, most of which are Diesel ?) but the same report you linked also says:
14.Although non-transport sources of NOx are considerable contributors (Figure 2) road
transport is responsible for some 80% of NOx concentrations at roadside, with diesel
vehicles the largest source in these local areas of greatest concern (Figures 3a; 3b and
3c).
11 This is due to both the significant growth in vehicle numbers, particularly diesel
vehicles, and improvements in real world testing showing that laboratory test-based
emission standards have not delivered expected reductions under real world driving
conditions (see also Section 6).
So clearly there is a "hot spot" issue as I was saying earlier where the concentrations of NOx at the roadside are a lot higher than the average across the whole of London. And the roadside is where a lot of people spend a lot of their time, whether pedestrians or commuters.


Context is key.

I agree that "concentrations" should be tackled, maybe as a priority, but there is little political will in weaning off fossil fuels on the whole, this is a band-aid experiment at best.
Again, I'm not saying ithese measures are wrong but it is cherry-picking imo, a sort of nimbyism.

What that Defra report shows is we've reduced NOx emissions massively over the decades, a huge success by the looks of it, only marred by the increase in vehicle registrations but still falling.

What it also shows is that commercial diesels (look at the huge increases in registration numbers over the years!) are the main contributor in London and similar areas, made worse by congestion and road layouts. At least that's how I see it.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by MikeT »

Mandrake wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 13:35
Whoops:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ce-adviser
If only the governments would admit past mistakes instead of ex-advisers...


As mentioned in the draft plan, they aim to road-side test individual vehicles and, possibly fine/charge the registered keepr if it's found not to meet it's declared emissions. :evil:

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Mandrake
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

MikeT wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 14:50
Mandrake wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 13:35
Whoops:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ce-adviser
If only the governments would admit past mistakes instead of ex-advisers...


As mentioned in the draft plan, they aim to road-side test individual vehicles and, possibly fine/charge the registered keepr if it's found not to meet it's declared emissions. :evil:

Rather unfair if the design of the car can't meet its claimed emissions from the factory! :evil: It's the manufacturers that should be getting dinged for this...

elma
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by elma »

Fining drivers like that will never happen, only ones with faults will get that treatment.

Imagine the test case when 1,000s of car owners take a manufacturer to court over it. If the vehicles are relatively new and dealer serviced the manufacturer will be up the Creek.

It will get even more complicated with finance companies involved as the contract is to supply the vehicle to the book spec.

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daviemck2006
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by daviemck2006 »

CitroJim wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 13:55
elma wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 13:28
Up to you at the end of the day Jim, all that matters is would you forgive yourself?


That's an easy one James... No. I know that as I've never forgiven myself for ever parting with my 205GTi...

I have more hassle with my 207 than I do with my Xantias...

You want to flog that 207 Jim and get a 205 again, while you can still pick up a decent one for reasonable money. They are only going up in value all the time, a decent gti would be over 5 grand, a rough runner gti can be got for a grand, and decent lesser models are all creeping up too.

MikeT
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by MikeT »

Mandrake wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 14:52
MikeT wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 14:50
Mandrake wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 13:35
Whoops:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ce-adviser
If only the governments would admit past mistakes instead of ex-advisers...


As mentioned in the draft plan, they aim to road-side test individual vehicles and, possibly fine/charge the registered keepr if it's found not to meet it's declared emissions. :evil:

Rather unfair if the design of the car can't meet its claimed emissions from the factory! :evil: It's the manufacturers that should be getting dinged for this...


Yeah, I probably over-stated what I fear may happen, having read more (and more). It's all rather confusing. They will be implementing T-zone charges and state that (although my car is classed as complying with Euro4/IV standards, they say to be exempt from the charge, it must "meet the standard" and this can be tested with portable road-side testing equipment.

There is also a mention of reviewing "taxes" for diesel vehicles, whatever that means.

MikeT
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by MikeT »

elma wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 15:06
Fining drivers like that will never happen, only ones with faults will get that treatment.

Imagine the test case when 1,000s of car owners take a manufacturer to court over it. If the vehicles are relatively new and dealer serviced the manufacturer will be up the Creek.

It will get even more complicated with finance companies involved as the contract is to supply the vehicle to the book spec.


Fines, maybe not (poor choice of descriptor) but increased costs, whatever their guise. The consumer always bears the costs in the end.

MikeT
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by MikeT »

There you go, page 44. Table of five key pollutants....

"Road transport accounts for 34% of overall NOx emissions.".
The higher concentrations are a direct result of highly-populated areas, main arterial routes and congestion imo.

Their pie-charts show private diesel vehicles are responsible for about 1/3 of this (which I calculate to be just 11% overall), the rest are commercial.

Little detail is given about the other 66% sources but I'd imagine, rail, shipping and air travel are major part of it.

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Mandrake
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Youtube recommendations popped up this video for me, and although I'm subscribed to Fully charged and have watched a lot of his videos, I hadn't seen this one before: :)



It's really interesting to watch it from a historical perspective, to see just how much progress has been made since 2010 when this video was made. (You can tell because his hair hasn't gone grey yet :lol: )

The i-Miev first launched in Japan in 2009 based on the 2006 Mitsubishi i Car platform, Robert was part of the UK trial that involved a load of i-Miev's being given to various journalists and others for a year as part of the UK governments EV feasibility study. This ended in 2010 when this video was made and he had to hand the car back.

Although he quotes a sale prices of £38,000 in the video they actually dropped the price to the still ludicrously expensive £28,000 before subsidy almost straight away. :rofl2:

To keep this in context though, 2009 was one year after the Tesla Roadster was released, 2 years before the Nissan Leaf was released, and 4 years before the Tesla Model S was released. The i-Miev was really early on the scene, a little bit too early if anything.

This was also REALLY early in EV deployment in the UK. So early that there was NO Level 2 public charging in the UK (3.6/7.2kW charging) at the time, and almost no Chademo DC fast charging, except at the occasional Mitsubishi dealer. :lol:

Looking at statistics on Zap map at https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/ we can see that even in 2011 there were still only about 1500 public charging points in the whole of the UK, and nearly all of those were just standard 3 pin 13 amp plugs, which today are considered painfully slow for charging EV's. Look at 2016, only 5 years later and we have 12,000 public chargers with a large percentage of them being fast or rapid chargers, and public 3 pin plugs have all but gone the way of the dodo. In areas like Scotland you are spoilt for choice for chargers.

The i-Miev despite its 60 mile range is a much more usable useful car purely due to the wide deployment of public charging now.

If EV's and the charging infrastructure have improved this much in just 7 years, what do the next 7 years hold ? :)

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CitroJim
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

daviemck2006 wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 15:16
CitroJim wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 13:55
elma wrote:
06 Jul 2017, 13:28
Up to you at the end of the day Jim, all that matters is would you forgive yourself?


That's an easy one James... No. I know that as I've never forgiven myself for ever parting with my 205GTi...

I have more hassle with my 207 than I do with my Xantias...

You want to flog that 207 Jim and get a 205 again, while you can still pick up a decent one for reasonable money. They are only going up in value all the time, a decent gti would be over 5 grand, a rough runner gti can be got for a grand, and decent lesser models are all creeping up too.



Davie, honestly, I can't afford even a rough one now :( I'm stuck with what I have... In fact I'm dubious if I'll be able to keep all three on the road next year so I'll likely only put the Activa on the road for the summer...

My part-time working does not do anything for my wealth but it does wonders for my health and for that reason it's priceless and worth every sacrifice I have to make to afford it...