C4 Grand Picasso as Xantia estate replacement? YES

[RichardW]

No spare on ours - there's plenty of room under the floor, but there's no attachment mechanism. I believe you can get a mech as Mark points out, but I think for UK market not included on G-Ps - 5 seaters have them (that certainly seems to be the case on the 2010 brochure I found on citroennet: http://www.citroenet.org.uk/publicity-b ... -2010.html)

TBH when was the last time you had a puncture that you had to stop and change? And when was the last time you ruined a tyre such that pumping it up wouldn't have limped it to somewhere? OK, it's a bit of a fag if you have to get it towed, but perhaps once every half million miles is not the end of the world....!

[Old-Guy]

Richard

Boxing Day 1988, about 10pm, about 5 miles west of Stow-on-the-Wold doing 60-70 in steady rain towards Tewkesbury; O/S/F wheel hit a piece of bent steel plate a bit larger than a number plate, laying invisible in the road. Punched a tear in the shoulder of the tyre that I could put my hand through. Three children and Christmas presents in car; but we were on our way again in about 15 minutes on the spare wheel. A new tyre couldn't be fitted for several days until one of the local tyre places opened between the Christmas and New Year holidays. Not the first, nor the last, time that I've had a front tyre wrecked by debris in the road - perhaps because I used to do a lot of miles in the dark; debris is much more likely to be spotted and avoided in daylight. A space-saver would have got us home, but then we wouldn't have been able to visit my parents the following day (100 miles in the opposite direction). AA Recovery on Boxing night and no mobile phones in those days either!

That one was a long time ago, but my last incident was 2 years ago. Somewhere in West London I drove over broken glass shortly after picking up the blue VSX. Cuts to both N/S tyres spotted the following day when I wondered why both were a bit soft. I would guess that less than half the punctures I've had in the last 50 years would have been resealable let alone repairable.

[Richard_C]

I'm with you on that, its depends on where you go. Daytime ruptured tyre in the week and near urban areas, no problem. Halfway up an Alp late on a Saturday with 5 people headed for a ski holiday, different matter. Then their is repair-ability. I understand (but could be wrong) that once you use the rescue-goo for something like a nail hole, then a proper tyre mender fix cannot be done so a new tyre at £££ is needed.

Citroen dropped spares from a lot of the range but they are making a comeback. All new C4 Picassos get them, and I think all C3s.

[GiveMeABreak]

Here in the wilderness it's hedge cutting that does it every time! The tractors cut the hedges then clear off leaving sharp stems all over the road - my last 3 punctures have been down to these idiots.

[Old-Guy]

Here in the wilderness it's hedge cutting that does it every time! The tractors cut the hedges then clear off leaving sharp stems all over the road - my last 3 punctures have been down to these idiots.

Been there... but a few years since the last time - slow punctures due to multiple thorns in all 4 tyres. All repairable fortunately, but added up to quite a sum.

"Cut" isn't the word I'd use: SMASH is a more accurate description of the action of the usual (flail) 'mower' designed to deal with everything from grass to small trees, by way of wild flowers, road signs, plastic warning markers, rubbish of all sorts; shredded and flung to the four winds, the heavier it is the farther it flies!
I once saw an operator trying to disentangle a spring mattress from his machine there is such a thing as natural justice!

[GiveMeABreak]

I'd loved to of seen that - excellent!

[Old-Guy]

A Mazda 5 has been suggested as an alternative, but its Focus floorpan makes it more a 4½ (+2) than a 5-7 seater, so I'm now pretty sold on the idea of a post 2010 face-lift Grand C4 Picasso.
Given the reliability problems of the 16V and that we would probably keep a GP for 5-10 years, long-term reliability is a major concern. However, attempts to do my homework properly are being defeated by the lack of information on the engine changes for 2011. Various 'reviews' simply mention updated, lower emissions, 1.6 & 2.0 HDi engines, and then bang on about the HDi-e versions. The Wikipedia page doesn't even acknowledge the engine changes from 1/11/2010. Nowhere can I find a believable engine type which might allow me to discover some basic facts: Ford or PSA based? Belt or chain? In what other makes/models was this engine (identical spec.) used? Did the 8V 1.6 HDi continue to be installed in the GP post-2013 model revision?
There's a tidy 11-plate 8v 1.6HDi GP with 108k on the clock advertised on Autotrader. Way too many miles for seriously consideration, but is this a rare survivor, or an indication that that the 8V HDi may be as long-lived as the XUD9?
As always, your knowledge and comments gratefully received.
Guy

[GiveMeABreak]

The only info I can find for you is what was in the original brochure (you may have seen this already though from the last link I gave you but on a different section): If you click on a page it will zoom up and focus in a new page for ease of reading. Not sure if it's any help, but covers basic engine info.
http://www.citroenet.org.uk/publicity-b ... -2010.html

[Old-Guy]

Unfortunately, the 2010 brochure is no help as it dates from about November 2009. Citroen seem to have stopped building RHD C4 Picassos with the troublesome 1.6HDi 16V engine from about March 2010. A revised, face-lifted, C4 Picasso 2011 range was launched at the 2010 Paris Motor Show in November 2010. This include replacing both of the existing HDi engines with 'revised' units having slightly lower emissions figures that got both into the sub-140gm/km tax category. The 16V designation for the 1.6HDi was quietly dropped. Deliveries of 'held' orders for 1.6 HDi 16V engines flooded out in early November 2010 - some customers had to wait for as long as 10 months for their new cars which were delivered against the original documents with the result that some careless dealers registered 2011-spec cars with 2010 engine data!

My research to date indicates that there are few, if any, 60-plate 1.6HDi C4 Picassos with the 16V engine. What I want to find out is: What exactly is the 2011-2013 1.6HDi engine in the C4 Picasso?

Guy

[GiveMeABreak]

Well I can only find the 2009 engines and the 2013 ones as per the brochures - nothing in between.

[RichardW]

It's basically the same as the 16V unit - still based on the Ford / PSA JV, widely used I would imagine in Ford / PSA products; not sure if Mazda / MINI are still using it. Revised head for 8V (so no in head cam chain); cambelt driven; front mounted turbo. Revised injectors which have proper clamps with decent sized bolts. Revised EGR valve. Revised turbo. Revised Cat/DPF - you will note there is a temperature sensor in the inlet to the cat now. Quite probably revised air routing valve (above the turbo, used during DPF regen to bypass the intercooler). I think the power is slightly up, i.e 115 BHP. Seems to be a very reliable unit - have heard virtually no troubles with it (well, apart from my Parents' that needed a new injector, but that seems to be a one off). In fact, if a few steps are taken on the 16V unit, then it can provide good reliable service - it's a fundamentally sound engine marred by those stupid injector clamp bolts.

[Old-Guy]

Well I can only find the 2009 engines and the 2013 ones as per the brochures - nothing in between.

My problem precisely - Citroen announced revised engines in October 2010 with new emissions figures and quietly changed the designation from 1.6HDi 16V to 1.6HDi, but provided no other information.

Richard,
Thanks for the extra information. Unfortunately, I'm no longer able to do any major work on our car, which why I'm reluctantly looking for a replacement for the 'Green Lady', and as a consequence we need something that ought to be totally reliable without any sorting - and accept that we will have to pay accordingly
According to the press release, the output of the 2011 (8V) 1.6HDi is unchanged at 110 bhp - I haven't found any real output figures but as the 0-60 time went up a bit, that suggests that power and/or torque suffered in pursuit of slightly reduced emissions below the magic 140gm/km that got it into the next road tax and company car benefit classes.
Had a short test drive of a nice 34,000 mile GC4P (£7,500) this morning, lots of road noise from the front; probably down to the tyres (Delinte H2s, 72dB). Some decent, quiet (68dB) Goodyears or similar, should sort that. Otherwise nice tidy car but SWMBO didn't like the colour (wants one in green!). The fact that the nose is totally invisible was a bit daunting; I can't think of anything else that I've driven, apart from trucks and the odd 'forward control' van, where you can't see anything of the front. Hopefully, we'd both get used to it before the expensive nose got dinged or scraped!
Bit disappointed that there's not a lot of leg room for row 2 even with the seats shoved back. But we do like the fact that row 2 is 3 individual seats, each individually foldable or adjustable for position. Maximum flexibility of seats plus clobber. We would probably use a GC4P more in 6-seat mode than 7; that's 3 growing grand-children, their Mummy and 2 grandparents (leaving Daddy working hard!).

[Richard_C]

Back to engines.

Originally I though that e-hdi was a special edition for Yorkshire, but no.

I think the e-hdi 1.6 came in at 129g CO2 115 bhp, the hdi was 132g, 110bhp, so they are in different tax brackets. Both are Euro 5. The later Blue Hdi is Euro 6 and 100g CO2 120 bhp so zero tax but they were all post 2014.

I wonder if the 8v and 16v Hdis were in different emission/tax bands - if so you might be able to work out which engine is fitted by asking about the tax?

[Old-Guy]

I wonder if the 8v and 16v Hdis were in different emission/tax bands - if so you might be able to work out which engine is fitted by asking about the tax?

You would think so wouldn't you - or better still, by checking the registered details with DVLA. In fact, Citroen so confused supplying dealers (not difficult) that at least one (PK60 YOE) is registered with the wrong emissions figure (142gm/cm). I really wouldn't want to try to get DVLA to correct that one.

Other 8V 1.6HDi (on a 60 plate) are registered at 139gm/cm which put it in the next lower classes for road tax (£15 less) and company car taxable benefit. According to Parkers, the 16V 1.6HDi was variously 140 or 142gm/cm. The same difference applies to the 2.0HDi - but 60 and 11 plate ones (what we can afford) are almost all Exclusives with the expensively troublesome rear 'air-bag' suspension and horrible EGS (semi-)auto box. Interestingly, many of these are listed on Autotrader by dealers as Manuals!

[GiveMeABreak]

but 60 and 11 plate ones (what we can afford) are almost all Exclusives with the expensively troublesome rear 'air-bag' suspension and horrible EGS (semi-)auto box. Interestingly, many of these are listed on Autotrader by dealers as Manuals!

The EGS are referred to as piloted manuals in a sense - having a normal clutch and gearbox, but they have hydro-electric actuators on the clutch and gearbox to do the movement, so no torque converter.