C5 mk 1 starting problem

[white exec]

The mention of glowplugs doing nothing except when temperatures are at or below freezing is nonsense. Operation of glowplugs is essential for cold-engine diesel starting under most conditions, and is usually accompanied by a short period of 'post-heating' after the engine has fired up.
The length of time that the glowplugs operate for is usually determined by the engine (coolant) temperature being monitored.

[hirsty]

The car runs perfectly well AFTER starting. It's getting it to fire up that's the problem, hence my comment.

hirsty.

[waynedance]

Sure I read it somewhere about the minus 5 degrees. But found this http://www.citroenet.org.uk/passenger-cars

Will keep looking.....

My cars glow plug light comes on for less than a second when switching on the ignition and always has done even in UK Winter's. Not sure if the 2.0 is the same?

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[GiveMeABreak]

Looking at a previous post, the glow plugs don't operate until 0 degrees C, so that isn't the current problem. Starting this morning took longer than usual with the starter turning slowly, although it did start. I am looking at changing the starter motor and checked out GSF for prices. Entering my reg throws up 3 starters. All listed as 2.0 HDI 2001-2004
1.8 kw @ £178
1.4 kw @ £196
2.3 kw @ £355
The BOL is as usual useless in identifying which I need.
Any suggestions please.
hirsty

VIN?

[waynedance]

http://www.citroen-owners-club.co.uk/ci ... -problems/

Found something, coastline taxis seems to know his stuff..read lots of his posts in the past.

Might be of some help to you.

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[white exec]

Glowplug dash light does not indicate how long the glowplugs are operating. When it goes out, it is simply saying it is OK to start, so it may only be on for a very few seconds, or less.

[waynedance]

Would think the glow plugs are not his issue not this time of year.

Possible fuel problem, low pressure fuel running back? Need a diagnostic session.

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[hirsty]

Vin is VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]

The problem as I see it is that the engine does not turn over fast enough on the first cold start. Having started the car then turns over much more quickly and starts without problem during the rest of the day. The fuel filter was renewed 10k miles ago and is a Rover 75 throwaway ( on when I bought the car ) Once started the car runs perfectly and returns around 53 mpg on a run and high 40's around town. Serviced 1200 miles ago.

hirsty

[GiveMeABreak]

Looking at a previous post, the glow plugs don't operate until 0 degrees C, so that isn't the current problem. Starting this morning took longer than usual with the starter turning slowly, although it did start. I am looking at changing the starter motor and checked out GSF for prices. Entering my reg throws up 3 starters. All listed as 2.0 HDI 2001-2004
1.8 kw @ £178
1.4 kw @ £196
2.3 kw @ £355
The BOL is as usual useless in identifying which I need.
Any suggestions please.
hirsty

The one listed for your car should be this one - Your car has the DW10ATED Engine and this is what they list out of the 2 available on GSF

https://www.gsfcarparts.com/901pc0150

[hirsty]

Well after a couple of weeks on the new battery and glow plugs, I had to bump start this morning. The starter was slowly churning and sounding as if it was going to sieze up. I will be getting a new starter from GSF and having it fitted next week. What really confuses me is why after the first start, it starts perfectly? Am I missing something obvious or is this how they normally die?

hirsty

[Peter.N.]

Once the engine has started and been run the oil temperature increases and considerably reduces the load on the starter plus the fact that the battery is now freshly charged.

Peter

[white exec]

Neither starter motor nor glow-plugs will appreciate battery voltage being a bit low.

Might be worth checking that there is nothing draining the battery "overnight". You can check this by disconnecting one of the battery leads, and then making the connection again through an ammeter. Acceptable current drain, IGN and everything else off, would be about 0.5A (500mA). Anything over 1A is suspicious, 2-3A is enough to seriously deplete battery charge after a day or two of non-use.

One cause of mysterious unattended discharge is where a replacement alternator is installed incorrectly, and its IGN and Batt+ (sensing) wires crossed over. More usual is a rogue boot or interior light, or even radio/phone.

Another route of attack is to leave the battery charging overnight. If it cold starts well after that, then it confirms battery state is the issue.

[wheeler]

Acceptable current drain, IGN and everything else off, would be about 0.5A (500mA).

That would be way to high for a C5.
Max drain for a fully loaded top spec C5 is 0.06 amps

[white exec]

Good. I was quoting guesstimate for absolute maximum.
All-in figure for S2 XM is approx 34mA.
Anything over 500mA is enough to start taking a toll on the battery after a several days, and needs thorough investigation. 100mA would be enough to ring some alarm bells.

[BX]

Your car's symptoms are typical of a faulty starter. Probably just wear and tear to the brushes and bushings. Modern commutators do not wear like the Lucas ones of old. There is also the possibility of problems with the reduction gear or the armature. On certain vehicles DMF failure can choke the pinion and ring gear with debris and give the same symptoms.
To check the operation of the starter you need to measure the battery voltage as the engine is cranking and also the current drawn by the starter. The current can be measured using a DC clamp meter. These used to be very expensive but now are available cheaply. Most will also have resistance and voltage ranges and so can replace a standard multimeter.
Turning over faster after the first start is typical. There are several reasons for this but it still mystifies me how even a very short period running has an effect that lasts for hours.
The glow plugs are not really part of the start, no start, equation on these engines. The pre heat period is negligible until the temperature is seriously sub zero. Even then the engine will most likely start without them. This does not mean that they are not activated or used. They are activated after starting in order to stabilise running and reduce pollution. The pre heat phase cannot begin until the ignition is turned on.
If the starter is a fault the best option is generally a replacement new or exchange item which comes with a warranty. As already pointed out they available at reasonable prices.
http://m.mister-auto.ie/en/starter-moto ... 14_g2.html
Almost all starters from Peugeot/Citroën 1.9 and 2.0 diesels will swap and work without problems. They may have differences but they bolt on and function perfectly. At least some of the 2.2 diesel starters are also swappable.
A word of caution on checking for battery drain on any modern vehicle. Almost all vehicles have a body computer. This has different names depending on the vehicle (BCM, BSI,). What also differs is the going to sleep process and timing. The drain current cannot be measured until the computer goes into deep sleep. The Citroën BSI usually goes down in one go after about two minutes provided nothing isI left switched on or activated. Some makes can take up to thirty minutes. Disconnecting or reconnecting the battery upsets this and the currents are on the low side to be accurately measured with a clamp meter. However the drop in current will show on the display when the BSI goes to sleep.