Citroen C5 x7 2009 Clutch Judder

[Peter.N.]

Mmm, they seem to be going backwards, my 406 has done 245k+ on the original DMF and clutch and is still not showing any signs of wear.

Peter

[GiveMeABreak]

So many variables Peter. VAG and Ford owners also have a significant number of premature failures with DMFs; the forums are full of complaints, so definitely not unique to PSA. Driving habits will also have a significant bearing on longevity and of course towing and stop / start town driving.

[Peter.N.]

Ah well, as I don't usually drive over 60 mph and get 60+ mpg mine should last forever.

Peter

[GiveMeABreak]

60+! Where are you..... Salt Lake City? Lucky to get 40 in rural west Wales, with wind behind you, going downhill freewheeling!

[Peter.N.]

Earlier this year we got 70.1 mpg between Devon and North Yorkshire driving at a fairly steady 60 mph, no rapid acceleration or heavy braking, would bore many people to tears but after having been driving for 60 years it suits me fine, I did my fair share of boy racing in the '50s but when I was doing about 30k miles a year for work I found it was much less tiring to sit in the nearside lane with the lorries and listen to the radio.

I average a bit over 50 mpg in the summer and a bit under in the winter but on any long journey on main roads - excluding cities I manage 60 mpg+. That's indicated speed and mileage of course but I know I can get 1000 miles from a tankful on our North of Scotland trip in the summer. I used to get 50 mpg+ on that journey in the 2.1 XM's

Peter

[GiveMeABreak]

Not bad at all. I had 3 XMs, all petrol, the last 2 being 2.0 Lt. Auto Turbo Prestiges and I can't for the life of me remember how much I got out of those, but I don't think it was more than 20MPG! Lovely cars, all the leather and electric armrests to boot and solid cars.

[Bob L'eponge]

Is this job of changing the DMF and clutch beyond my knowledge. I have a access to the relevant workshop manual for my car. Be honest guys I'm not an expert but ill give anything a try if I have a fighting chance with limited tools/equipment! What do you think I should do?

If you have a garage and can set aside 2 days so nothing is rushed, with a bit of planning it is not a hard job. (Having done one I am sure I could comfortably do the job in day.) A few points.

On the 1.6 Hdi the box isn't that heavy but it is still a little awkward to get in and out without help / support. I used a hollow steel beam fixed across the engine bay, fitted between the left hand strut top (looking forward) and a vertical support running up from the solid box section that runs from fore to aft at the right and side of engine bay, along with a lifting strap. On the 1.6 there is a reasonable amount of room to manoeuvre the box around. (I understand that things are much tighter on the 2.0 Hdi.)

Two sets of axle stands are a boon - one pair for the car and the others to support the engine when the box is removed.

The front cross-member needs to come off, and to do this the bottom hose on the radiator needs to be disconnected.

Undo both hub nuts using the spare steel wheel before putting the car up on stands.

The most frustrating job is probably undoing the top bell housing bolts as there is a lot of wiring and so in the way way. The DPF also needs to come off in order to be able to remove a bolt that runs into the bell housing from the 'outside'.

The flywheel can be locked when loosening the fixing bolts via a hole in the rear of the bell housing, ideally using the same key as is used when locking the crankshaft when doing a timing belt change. Naturally, when fitting the new flywheel and replacement bolts the right tightening sequence and torque needs to be used. Loctite also needs to be used and an angular torque wrench for the final tightening as these are 'torque to yield' bolts. (The Laser angular torque wrench is good quality and reasonably cheap, or just make up a template.)

When you take off the clutch slave cylinder use a cable tie or something to stop the piston from popping out.

The clutch is not of the self-adjusting type (unlike the 2.0) so no special tools are needed to fit it.

The drive shafts slip directly into the differential, rather than bolting on, so the box needs to be drained of oil. Changing the drive shaft and gearbox mainshaft oil seals is a good idea. Take care not to damage the drive shaft seals with the splines of the shaft on refitting them!

If the crankshaft main oil seal is in good shape, leave it well alone. This is of the new 'spring less' PTFE type, so should last the life of the car and a replacement really should only be fitted with the right tools whilst following the right procedures. (Including ensuring not even a fingerprint is put on the shaft or seal, not turning the engine for 4-6 hours after fitting and so on).

All in all, not a technically difficult job, just lots of stuff to remove and re-fit!

P.s. It would be interesting to see how much a dealer would charge for this job. I can't imagine it would be cheap given that book time is probably around 9 hours and they would charge you list for the parts.

[Bob L'eponge]

By the way, DMF flywheels are perfectly capable of lasting for a very long time, but only they are never, ever abused. (The DMF clutch on my wife's Nissan Note, fitted with a Renault 1.5 Dci engine, is still fine after 250,000 km.) Biggest problem is damage caused by over-heating the clutch through slipping it, as this damages the rubber which is used to absorb most of the impulse shock.

That said, I think the unit fitted to the 1.6 Hdi is a bit undersized for the weight of the car. Before my C5 I had a Fiat JTD Weekend estate and the DMF and clutch on that were way bigger. The gearbox also weighed about twice that of the one on my C5 and was fitted with proper split drive shafts that bolted to flanges on the outside of the differential. Non of this was any help though when the clutch release bearing gave up the ghost at 110,00 miles!

[mark090167]

Hi,

May I first thank you all for your replies, especially Bob who has taken an awful lot of time and thought putting together the replacement instructions .... Amazing, thanks.

I don't know if this any baring on anything. For about 30 minutes this morning when driving around I thought the problem had gone away. The car drove as normal with no juddering. I then went into see one of my clients. Got back in the car and started driving around and the juddering was back again. It seems to happen when the cars had a good run around (When well warmed up) You would have though that this problem would have happened if the car was hot or cold?

Ill see what happens tomorrow and see if the same thing happens again or its just a one off.

Thx again.

[Bob L'eponge]

Could be that if the rubber in the clutch has been 'cooked' and so has gone rather 'gummy' or is otherwise worn out, it might still retain a bit of stiffness when the clutch is cold (especially in cold weather). However, once it get hot the rubber will soften up again, so allowing more movement. Just an idea!

By the way, I see that Citroen's fixed price for a clutch change on a C5 Is £700. Add on a DMF at list price and the total dealer price must come to at least £1000!

[osx]

You can easily get the price down to £700 for both at the dealer as you can supply the parts.

[flying clutchman]

I've changed literally scores of dmf/clutch assemblies on most makes of car. As generally only three companies (LUK, Sachs and Valeo) make 99% of original assemblies for all european cars ther is not that much difference in general design between makes. Firstly; dmfs can last anything from 5k-500k miles. The symptoms can vary form being undriveable to virtually none. I once changed a worn clutch in a Fiat Multipla and when I took the clutch out the dmf was almost in two parts. No symptom at all.
The worst thing about the 1.6 engine is the single bellhousing bolt which is fitted the 'wrong' way round. To access this you have to remove the heatshield around the front exhaust (without damaging the rad) then the exhaust pipe from the turbo down to next join, THEN the exhuast support bracket, just to undo one bolt. On earlier similar gearboxes this bolt fitted the other way round, however PSA group (the peugeots are the same) thought we were having life far to easy so decided to change things

[RichardW]

The heatshield is a delight. I spent ages on the C4 Picasso when I was changing the turbo getting the sensing pipe and bolts out with the rad in, only to discover that there wasn't enough room to get the shield out once it was loose - so had to take the rad out anyway! When I took the filter out of the turbo feed line on the 307, I just went straight in and took the rad out - it makes the job much easier! C5 should be easier though as there is acres is room between the engine and the rad. Do yourself a favour though, and pop the turbo oil feed banjo out while you are there, and remove the mesh from the end of it to protect the turbo from oil starvation and premature death.

[renagade]

I have a 2009 c5 x7 diesel with 82k and my clutch started to slip so had a new clutch and had the DMF removed and a standard flywheel fitted and now (with the weight of the DMF gone ) the car seems to be much quicker on take off from the lights. The only down side to this setup is that there is a little more ( only little ) vibration .

[GiveMeABreak]

I have a 2009 c5 x7 diesel with 82k and my clutch started to slip so had a new clutch and had the DMF removed and a standard flywheel fitted and now (with the weight of the DMF gone ) the car seems to be much quicker on take off from the lights. The only down side to this setup is that there is a little more ( only little ) vibration .

A conversion to SMF will also put additional strain on the transmission from the increased vibration as a result of removing the damping of the DMF - especially on Diesel cars, so it has to be a personal choice really. The additional vibration felt through the cabin will also vary from car to car - one guy who had a conversion on a peugeot got a numb foot from the additional vibration!

Valeo seem to be the most popular and trusted conversion kits - however even they don't list a KIT4P for the 2008 > C5 2.0 DW10BTED4 Engines - only the 2004>2007 2.0 version on the Mark II facelift according to their latest catalogue.