Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

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Re: Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

Post by DickieG »

Stickyfinger wrote:But all of the above would throw permanent faults and warnings wouldn't they ??
I believe it may well depend upon what the engine was being asked to do when a fault was triggered, there are sooo many variables that I've found it critical to keep an open mind when diagnosing with computers, the fault registered can be the effect rather than the cause.
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Re: Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

Post by Steve Buck »

Thanks for the replies and suggestions. When the car first failed to start i removed, checked and cleaned all the fuses in the main box under the bonnet, except the maxi fuses underneath which seemed to be very stiff to pull out (I may have another go at this tomorrow). I was also hoping to remove the fuse box but couldn't work out how to detach the wiring underneath, but will try and have another look - any idea how to remove the fuse box completely? Other posts I have read seem to suggest there is a known problem with the fuse boxes on early MkIII C5's and mine's a 2009 model with the original fuse box - apparently the problem may affect the operation of the fuel pump relay which is located on the underside of the fuse box (not sure if there was ever any official recall relating to this). This seems to be a prime candidate for the car dying and not wanting to restart.

Car is a 2009 (59) C5 MkIII (X7) 2.0 HDI 16V 140bhp (VIN: VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]) with fuse box part number 9666700180 (BSM-R02-00 08/07/09). If I can obtain a new fuse box then presumably although this would be the same part number the design has changed to eradicate the problem - or is the has the part number different for the improved fuse box?

I was considering blanking the EGR temporarily, mainly to eliminate this as a possible cause of the problem, but I'm not sure if a stuck EGR would cause the engine to die and not re-start (have been having some slight hesitation when accelerating from low speed and engine died on accelerating away from a roundabout, although this may be coincidence). Also noticed there is an electrical sound (high pitch but low volume) from the EGR with the ignition switched on and this stops when I remove the electrical plug from the top of the EGR, but maybe a noise is normal from the EGR with the ignition on and no engine running?

Car is completely immobile at present so will try and find someone with Lexia/Diagbox who can read the fault codes for a few drinks before I contemplate replacement of the fuse box, which would seem to be a likely candidate for the problem.

Any further comments on the above gratefully received.

Thanks
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Re: Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

Post by RichardW »

Fuse box is rather dear:

Part Number Description Quantity Price excl. VAT Price incl. VAT Total incl. VAT Selection
9807028580 FUSE BOX 125.52 GBP 150.62 GBP 150.62 GBP

EGR valve can make a noise when energised as it does a self check routine - it should stop though. Might be worth unplugging it and seeing if the engine will start - it could, if it's really making a mess of the signal voltage, prevent some sensors talking to the engine, and it starting. Long shot, but it costs nothing!
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Re: Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

Post by triumphtoledo »

Just a quick addition, regarding removing EGR valves in the UK on fairly modern cars. In short, it is not permitted and you are committing an offence by driving the car on the road with one blanked off - even though it might pass an MoT Test.

As a journalist, I have been researching this issue and have been in touch with both European and British lawmakers about it. While enforcement is pretty lax currently, it will be stepped up.

Basically, you can modify a car in the UK, providing that the changes will not invalidate its new vehicle type approval certificate. The reference can be found on your V5C.

Removing an EGR Valve will cause a Euro IV/V/VI emissions compliant model to no longer meet those requirements, because of the increase in NOx emissions (including NO2). This has nothing to do with the MoT smoke opacity emissions test - it is a type-approval standard. Incidentally, the MoT Test checks mainly for condition, not for type approval compliance and a valid MoT certificate/receipt does not guarantee roadworthiness.

As the new vehicle type approval is invalidated, when the EGR is removed, the car is no longer roadworthy. It is the driver's responsibility to ensure that the vehicle is roadworthy under the UK's Road Traffic Act.

It is also an offence under the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (Regulation 61a(3))1 to use a vehicle, which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet - this refers to Construction and Use, not the MoT emissions' test.

Not trying to preach, or judge, but I hope that this helps.

R
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Re: Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

Post by Steve Buck »

Yes, I'd rather run the car with the EGR as designed, but was going to blank it temporarily to establish whether the car would start and it was the route cause of the problem. There is a high pitch sound (not loud) from the EGR which is continuous with the ignition on, but which stops when I unplug the electrical connector to the EGR. The car turns over but refuses to start with the EGR electrical connector plugged in or disconnected. I suspect it may be a fuse box fault (fuel pump relay?) as I believe there was problem with early versions and my car still has the original fuse box. However, before I purchase a replacement fuse box for £150 I'd like to eliminate a few other possibilities with some simple low cost diagnosis if I can.

Richard W - thanks for the info on a replacement fuse box the part No. you mention (9807028580) is different from the one on the car (9666700180) but presumably this is because the replacement fuse box is a different improved type?

I removed the fuse box last Sunday, which is quite easy once you know how. I noticed maxi fuse No. 1 was blown - this is a 50A fuse but I'm unsure what this protects - it may be for the radiator cooling fan which would explain why the radiator fan hasn't been working (another issue I've yet to resolve on the car). Perhaps you could tell me what maxi fuse No.1 is for - it's a 50A fuse on the far left of the row of maxi fuses.

Thanks

Steve
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Re: Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

Post by RichardW »

The number on the fuse box doesn't necessarily correspond with the PSA part number.... I can see fuse boxes with both those part nos on e-bay though! 966700180 doesn't return any part number matches on either Citroen or Peugeot parts list, so it must have a different PSA part number (which could be the 980 number....!). There's no fuse pump so the fuse won't be for that. You need to get it on a diag session to see what's up with it.....
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Re: Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

Post by Xantippa »

EGR blanking doesn't cause any trouble on HDi 136. It's done on mine (with ready made blanking plate from ebay) and I've driven with it nearly a year. Also it has nothing to do with MOT smoking test, I had perfect result after blanking. Motor just works better when it doesn't have to eat it's own shait.

Fusebox on mine (08) costed 50-60€ and all electrical gremlins are gone after changing it.
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Re: Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

Post by triumphtoledo »

Xantippa wrote:EGR blanking doesn't cause any trouble on HDi 136. It's done on mine (with ready made blanking plate from ebay) and I've driven with it nearly a year. Also it has nothing to do with MOT smoking test, I had perfect result after blanking. Motor just works better when it doesn't have to eat it's own shait.
Your car is no longer road-legal.

R
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Re: Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

Post by Stickyfinger »

triumphtoledo wrote:
Xantippa wrote:EGR blanking doesn't cause any trouble on HDi 136. It's done on mine (with ready made blanking plate from ebay) and I've driven with it nearly a year. Also it has nothing to do with MOT smoking test, I had perfect result after blanking. Motor just works better when it doesn't have to eat it's own shait.
Your car is no longer road-legal.

R
In Finland ?

A question, why would the 136bhp be different from other cars that do show faults ?
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Re: Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

Post by Xantippa »

triumphtoledo wrote:
Xantippa wrote:EGR blanking doesn't cause any trouble on HDi 136. It's done on mine (with ready made blanking plate from ebay) and I've driven with it nearly a year. Also it has nothing to do with MOT smoking test, I had perfect result after blanking. Motor just works better when it doesn't have to eat it's own shait.
Your car is no longer road-legal.

R
Yes I know that. But if my engine works better that way, and fuel consumption is lower, there's not very much idea keeping EGR working.

Next step I'm going to do is to take out FAP and remap engine. A bit more illegall stuff that gives more bhp and again more miles per gallon. :twisted:
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Re: Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

Post by Xantippa »

Stickyfinger wrote: A question, why would the 136bhp be different from other cars that do show faults ?
I think 165hp HDi has got different kind of EGR-system that can't be simply blocked.
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Re: Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

Post by Steve Buck »

I'm considering changing the fuse box - does this need to be programmed to match the car, or is it just plug and play?

Thanks

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Re: Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

Post by vborovic »

It should be programmed to the car's VIN, the best approach would be via the Citroen Service, because they'll retrieve the data from the Citroen servers that matches your car, that way it will be a 100% transfer success ... manually programming it could lead to potential options not being configured properly, and then you'll have a half working car
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Re: Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

Post by Steve Buck »

Hi vborovic,

I'm just replacing the fuse box and not the complete BSI/ECU, so does the fuse box on its own need any programming? Car is totally immobile at present so I'm not able to drive it anywhere to get any work done.

Thanks

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Re: Citroen C5 MkIII (X7) Engine Died Won't Start

Post by vborovic »

I should go hook up my Diag to my car to do a recheck of the under bonnet fusebox, true, the procedure I've mentioned is definitely such for the BSI, for the bonnet fusebox, I'd need to refresh my memory, wasn't doing any configuring on the car for a while now
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