Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

Here you go. All provided by Tom over at Lada Spares UK. Usual disclaimer - No connection other than as a satisfied customer and regular on the forums over there.

I really like these manuals from first glance in that they don't only tell you what things are, what they do etc, but they also tell you in most cases WHY they do what they do, and in many cases how they do it. At least most of Chapter 1 that I've read does...Generally that's what I've been interested in so far, figuring out how the system works as that will no doubt help my later inevitable bug fixing.

Niva TBi Service Manual Index.

Niva TBi Service Manual Chapter 1 - General System Description & Principles of System Operation.

Niva TBi Service Manual Chapter 2 - System Diagnostics (Part 1).

Niva TBi Service Manual Chapter 2 - System Diagnostics (Part 2).

Niva TBi Service Manual Chapter 2 - System Diagnostics (Part 3).

Niva TBi Service Manual Chapter 3 - Service Operations.

Niva TBi Service Manual Chapters 4, 5 & 6 - Specifications, Torque Settings & Special Tools.

Should keep some of you quiet for a while!

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CitroJim
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

Excellent Zel :D Looking forward to some bad weather now so that I can sit back and enjoy them.... I also want some bad weather to get stuck into something else too ;) I'll let you know how that goes very soon...

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

Looking at the system I'm honestly surprised that this wasn't a system that was more targeted as a cheap way to get an injection setup back in the day...It's incredibly modular and to be honest the only things which would likely prevent fitment to any vehicle really is the requirement to have an adaptor plate fabricated to allow the TBi unit to fit your existing manifold. ...Or given how little you could pick up Ladas for back in the late 90s/early 00s, use some of the saving and have a custom manifold made up!

Only other thing you could potentially need would be a remap...but given that this is a GM sourced unit with a standardised interface, I don't doubt that this would be pretty easy to do. ...Especially given that the manuals basically show you how the fuel map is constructed.

I know that GM used this throttle body successfully on engines up to 3.0 in size - so imagine for the sort of sizes of engines we tend to see over there that there could have been some pretty serious performance tuning potential in there!

New (TBi) lambda sensor turned up today, so the only bits I need to source for the Lada before I can at least start experimenting are:

[] Crankshaft position sensor.
[] Crankshaft pulley.
[] Timing chain cover.

Plus some fuel hose. The vast majority of the system on the Riva is metal anyway, just the tails at the tank and in the engine bay that are flexible hoses, so wouldn't be too hard to get things re-made with the appropriate fittings. Whole system runs at <30PSI anyway which makes life rather easier than on most multipoint cars where you've got to deal with hundreds of PSI of fuel pressure.

I don't see any evidence of an intertia switch on the Niva (the "rollover valve" mentioned in the manuals is part of the tank venting system and nothing to do with the injection kit itself), this is *definitely* something that I would be adding pretty much as soon as I had the system proven to be working.

Currently waiting to see whether the timing chain cover and pulley are available new for sensible money before I go muck around trying to get the 20 odd year old pulley off my donor vehicle...as we all know what fun that is, and I know that vehicle has no starter motor to assist in getting the nut off. If I can get those bits new cheaply I'll just do that as it saves me hassle - and another two hour round trip!

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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

Today I attempted to bleed the heater matrix on the Lada.

This resulted in 20 minutes of fighting with the hose clip on the flow hose to the heater matrix which had a completely rounded off head. After that point, I lost interest in the job, and decided that it can wait until I'm doing the injection conversion as access will be considerably easier with a half dozen vacuum hoses and the carb itself out of the way. Probably just take the Dremel to it.

I've stood on my head in the driver's footwell and the heater valve is indeed connected to the relevant cable and appears to be moving through the full range of travel - so an air lock in the matrix (which is the highest point in the system) is probably the most likely cause for the lack of heat output.

Also spent a bit of time poking the donor fuel pump for the injection conversion project to see whether I can get it to make anything more than pathetic clonking noises. It's currently being fed a diet of penetrating oil and poked with 12V from time to time - fingers crossed it will free off. Failing that I'll need to look for another fuel pump. That might actually be the best solution, as it minimises the amount of fuel line hacking involved, and means that I don't have to mess with the fuel gauge & warning light sender. I'm open to suggestions as to how to get fuel to the front of the car at somewhere around 30psi.

It seems a bit of an awkward pressure...Most pumps intended for carb applications seem to be 15psi or less, and most injection ones start at around 40psi...The original one was rated at 30-32psi, with the regulator on the throttle body set to 27psi, with excess being dumped back to the tank. Have to admit I'm tempted to just hook up a 40psi pump and see how it behaves, given the diameter of the return lines I can't see that being a real issue...

Also in a completely unrelated note, ascertained that you can indeed still get B121 (or A411 depending on the numbering standards you use) 15V batteries from Maplin...as the one for the resistance range on my AVO needed changing...the previous one looked to be from the 70s so hasn't done bad!

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by xantia_v6 »

You can use practically any injection pump, as long as you have a pressure regulator and return pipe somewhere in the system. The rated pressure is just the minimum that the pump produces at rated flow volume.

Mount the pump as low as you can, preferably level with the tank. If you mount the pump higher, then when the fuel level is low and the fuel gets hot (due to being recirculated through the engine compartment), the fuel will start to boil on the suction side of the pump, causing cavitation in the pump that is not good for it. I learnt this on my e-type that I converted to EFI. Likewise, don't be tempted to put a fuel filter between the tank and the pump.

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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

The TBi unit has a pressure regulator built into it and a return line from there...photo below. If the internal one can't handle it, I'm sure I could just install an external regulator.

Image

Just remembered that I should still have the old pump from the Saab somewhere (we replaced it years ago when I was having a seemingly untraceable running issue), which should do it...and from memory is a pump which Bosch state is suitable for use both in-tank or in-line...If I can find it! Now...It was under the floor in the Saab's boot for about three years, until I "tidied" it somewhere. That's never wise!

I *should* have space to mount it in-line with the tank level wise, and filters would be limited to the cartridge filter in the engine bay...Saab or Bosch didn't feel the need for anything more than a really coarse gauze filter on it, so it should be OK hopefully.

Curious to see how much fuel is actually re-circulated as it is just now, as the existing diaphragm pump seems to shift a lot if the test I did a while ago was anything to go by...

Imagine the peak fuel demand here will be rather lower than for an E-Type! To be honest the system is likely to be barely above idle in terms of fuel delivery with this engine I reckon...

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

Zelandeth wrote: Also in a completely unrelated note, ascertained that you can indeed still get B121 (or A411 depending on the numbering standards you use) 15V batteries from Maplin...as the one for the resistance range on my AVO needed changing...the previous one looked to be from the 70s so hasn't done bad!
Reminds me, I need one for my AVO... Thanks Zel :D

It's amazing what batteries are still available. I have no trouble sourcing PP9s for my vintage transistor radios. I can't understand quite why they are still so readily available as I've never established what else might use them..

I have a suspicion tha6 may be used in some industrial devices and in lamps used in roadworks but never proved it conclusively...

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by myglaren »

PP9s in a lot of stuff Jim. Both my AVO meters use them and they are in a lot of smoke detectors.
Just bought ten industrial ones.

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by elma »

Yes, used in fire detectors. I actually thought they were a special fire alarm battery as I've never seen one used elsewhere.

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

James, Steve, you're thinking of the PP3.. The PP9 is the BIG brother of the PP3 and is about ten times the size!

This is a PP3 along with it's big brother PP9 :)

Image

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by elma »

We're not Jim, pp3 is in domestic ones. The stuff I deal with that's more industrial has pp9 fitted. Pp3s wouldn't catch my eye, positively normal.

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

elma wrote:We're not Jim, pp3 is in domestic ones. The stuff I deal with that's more industrial has pp9 fitted. Pp3s wouldn't catch my eye, positively normal.
Ahh sorry James :oops: My bad.... I was thinking of normal domestic smoke detectors... My apologies...

Thanks, good to know what the PP9 is used in and now I know their future is assured :)

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by myglaren »

You were right in my case though Jim - just had to dig them out to check.

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by elma »

At least I know what to order if they expire now.

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

elma wrote:At least I know what to order if they expire now.


I have a standing order for them with CPC Farnell to keep my fleet of Hacker wirelesses powered up!