Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.
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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Unread post by Zelandeth »

Not likely to be a huge amount going on over the next few days, I've managed to come down with an absolute stinker of a cold which has utterly knocked me sideways. I was pretty surprised when the COVID tests I've done came back negative as that's how bad I've been feeling. Today though I forced myself outside for half an hour to do *something* mainly as a distraction if nothing else.

The mechanical fuel pump has now been removed and the blanking plate installed.

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I found a convenient hole in the inner wing to mount a bolt to (looks like it was originally intended as a wiring pass through - guessing for the marker light which would have been on the wing on US spec cars) which has basically decided where the new fuel pump will be living as it saves me having to drill any new holes.

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When I've got more time I may revisit this, either shuffling it over to towards the side a little more and re-drilling things so I can use both mounting lugs, though as it is it's absolutely not going anywhere.

The hoses obviously need to be rerouted, particularly the discharge side line to the carbs as it's now too short. That one is an old line that came with the car anyway so would be getting replaced as a matter of course - I just don't currently have any the right size in stock.

Testing the new pump next to the Hardi one showed that it shifts nearly double the amount of fuel, so probably is better suited to an engine which I'm sure can be "a little thirsty" when being driven in a spirited manner.

I had noticed even when running the previous electric pump (I've not wired this one up yet) that when the car had been idling for any period of time that I was still getting quite severe fuel vapourisation issues. I think I've finally tracked down probably the main reason for that - and that's that the fuel return line is plugged completely solid. That's one of the main ways that this issue is handled on this car, by simply keeping enough fuel flowing through the lines in the engine bay that it doesn't (in theory) have time to boil off. Obviously with that line out of the picture the flow rate is far, far lower (especially at idle), which is why the fuel winds up starting to boil off before it even gets to the pump.

The fuel supply changeover valve is only a couple of inches away from the offside exhaust manifold, and the feed from that then runs right over the top of the bell housing and along the nearside of the engine block - so there's plenty of opportunity for things to get hotter than ideal. I've definitely not discounted the idea of altering that routing somewhere down the line as it really just seems to be asking for trouble with modern fuels.

The immediate problem though is a clogged tank return line - and short of replacing the whole thing (which is most likely what will eventually be necessary) I'm not sure what to do about that. As with everything else aside from the bit between the fuel pump and carbs, this is all made in nylon and metal lines. I have tried the obvious thing, blowing back through it with the air line, and 115psi air didn't even touch it, so it's a pretty solid blockage. I've also tried rodding it out at the engine bay end (as the line does make a near 180 degree bend immediately so I was hoping that might be where the issue was), and it's definitely clear for a couple of metres (the longest bit of stiff enough wire that I had to hand). The lines are easy enough to access under the car as everything is in one bundle that runs along the offside chassis rail until they vanish upwards somewhere in the vicinity of the rear axle.

I pulled a couple of the trim panels inside the boot off to see if I could clearly see where the lines went - the answer being no. However I did discover more work I'll need to do. I'd commented on a couple of occasions that for a 70s British car that I had found the wiring in this thing to contain a surprisingly small number of bodges. Apparently I need to revise that to clarify that the *front* of the car is surprisingly free of bodges. The rear, not so much.

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Given the telltale holes in the parcel shelf, we know that there's been an aftermarket audio setup in here at some point - Which almost invariably seems to come with dodgy wiring.

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I'm hoping that between that and the tow bar most of this hackery is accounted for and as such will be pretty easy to tidy up/re-run as necessary.

That green wire that's been cut and is just flapping around in the breeze between the fuel tank and trim panel is green with a brown trace - which I believe marks it as the feed for the reversing lights. Which would definitely explain why they don't currently work. I remember it being mentioned that there had been issues with the tail lights on this car in the past so finding this lot wasn't entirely surprising really. However it's a job for another day as had neither the time nor energy to go chasing that any further today. Sure with a bit of time, a wiring diagram and a multimeter we can make sense of it. I'm equally sure once I've deleted obsolete speaker feeds and the dodgy looking tow bar wiring it will make far more sense.

Unfortunately you can't (as far as I can see) get to the feed/return lines on the fuel tank from in the boot. You can see a couple of at least the vent lines, but they just vanish behind the tank somewhere. Guessing that's an under-the-car job then...Yay, that will almost definitely ensure that I get a face full of unleaded while investigating things.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
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CitroJim
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Unread post by CitroJim »

I've been suffering that nasty lurgy too Zel, horrible isn't it :twisted: Happily I more or less shrugged the worst of it off after two days but it's left me sounding like Dot Cotton after smoking 200,000 fags!

Hope you're soon back to firing on all cylinders :)
Jim

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Unread post by Gibbo2286 »

CitroJim wrote: 08 Nov 2023, 18:17 I've been suffering that nasty lurgy too Zel, horrible isn't it :twisted: Happily I more or less shrugged the worst of it off after two days but it's left me sounding like Dot Cotton after smoking 200,000 fags!

Hope you're soon back to firing on all cylinders :)
Me too about ten days and still coughing but feeling better.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Unread post by CitroJim »

Gibbo2286 wrote: 08 Nov 2023, 19:19
CitroJim wrote: 08 Nov 2023, 18:17 I've been suffering that nasty lurgy too Zel, horrible isn't it :twisted: Happily I more or less shrugged the worst of it off after two days but it's left me sounding like Dot Cotton after smoking 200,000 fags!

Hope you're soon back to firing on all cylinders :)
Me too about ten days and still coughing but feeling better.
Poor you Eric :( Seems there's lots of it about...
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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Unread post by Zelandeth »

Starting to feel *slightly* more human today so spent a few minutes poking the fuel return line issue.

I'm assuming that there is an orifice somewhere in the return line to ensure that there is sufficient pressure delivered to the carbs. The absence of anything at the engine end to that effect leads me to believe it's probably at the tank end. Most likely in the arrowed fitting.

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Looking at that more carefully, I see that it's actually feeding the fuel back to the tank via the feed for the reserve pickup. Actually not a bad idea...it saves having to have another pass through into the tank, and should also help prevent debris from gathering around that outlet.

Now I know I have good flow through the reserve outlet from the tank, so that's fine...the issue is going to be likely in that metal line going into the fitting. Which I've confirmed based on a couple of photos does need to be accessed from underneath the car. So that's going to be quite a faff - as I'd be willing to bet good money that the back axle is going to be precisely in the way. However it needs to be dealt with.

As a workaround in the meantime I *may* be able to cobble something together using one of the vent lines.

I have tried applying vacuum to the line as well in the off chance that it may be able to pull anything back out of it, but no dice. So we'll need to continue doing some battle with it.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Unread post by xantia_v6 »

Jags of the period with recirculating fuel systems have s little inline pressure valve that opens iirc at 2psi.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

I noticed this when flicking through a few Classic Car Auction listings.

Shows the mounting point chosen in the engine bay for what looks very like the electric fuel pump you acquired.
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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Unread post by Zelandeth »

NewcastleFalcon wrote: 10 Nov 2023, 14:06 I noticed this when flicking through a few Classic Car Auction listings.

Shows the mounting point chosen in the engine bay for what looks very like the electric fuel pump you acquired.

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Neil
Intuitively that does look to make sense - all aside from the instructions that came with the pump stating that it must not be mounted horizontally anyway.

Not sure in the real world how much difference it makes given that plenty seem to be set up that way. Imagine their ignition coil is going to live a pretty hard life, it must be virtually touching the exhaust manifold where they've put it.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Unread post by c16rkc »

Glad you are feeling better!
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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Unread post by Zelandeth »

Fuel line I'd ordered arrived this morning to replace the rubber lines up front on the P6 which are unlikely to take kindly to ethanol. These on the other hand shouldn't care.

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Bought through Glencoe. Not the cheapest, but with so much counterfeit stuff floating around and all of the motor factors I've found so far just selling at best R6 rated hose, just seemed the safe option.

Fuel line routing has now been tidied up a bit.

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Not saying I won't revisit it in the future possibly, but that will be some day when I'm feeling less under the weather and it's not looking as though the heavens are about to open.

That jubilee clip on the top connection on the pump needs replacing with a proper fuel hose clip aside from anything else - I just couldn't find one in my stash the right size.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Unread post by c16rkc »

I'm not qualified to be able to understand most of what you are doing... :roll:

But I am reading with much interest, and who knows I might learn a think or two :lol:

But if nothing else, I love the splash of colour you have given the engine bay, and I am pleased adding (what looks to me like) a cut down pringle tube is improving the engine :P
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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Unread post by Zelandeth »

Had a look to ascertain precisely how awful access to the fuel return line was at the tank end today.

Our target:

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Lines from left to right are return, reserve and main fuel feeds.

Access is as expected, awful with the car on its wheels. It's about in the middle of the photo below. Centre of the car, a good 6' or so from the back.

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I don't fit through that gap under the boot floor or under the Di-Dion tube which is also in my way. I can just about touch it at full stretch from where I can get to, but definitely not in a way I can do anything useful. We'll need to either get the car up on ramps, or possibly jacked up, remove the offside rear wheel and see if we can get enough access from there - I didn't take note of how much clearance there was around the driveshaft. I think that's probably the way to go though. Given that this job is absolutely going to result in some spillage of fuel, I'd rather it land on the ground in front of me rather than dripping in my face, it tastes revolting and doesn't half sting if it goes in your eyes.

The plan such as it is at this point is basically to crack the return connection off and see if fuel comes out. If the answer is yes, the blockage is in the line between the engine bay and the tank - if not, hopefully we can clear it by poking a bit of wire into the fitting. Failing that, I'll need to get a whole bunch of fuel cans and drain the tank (all 15 gallons of it) so I can pull the whole lot out to attack off the car. Sure that will be a barrel of laughs.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Unread post by Hell Razor5543 »

I would be inclined (should it be the latter problem) to driver her around as much as you can, making good use of the fuel, until there is only a gallon or so to manage).
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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Unread post by Zelandeth »

Hell Razor5543 wrote: 15 Nov 2023, 18:56 I would be inclined (should it be the latter problem) to driver her around as much as you can, making good use of the fuel, until there is only a gallon or so to manage).
Were it not for vapour lock starting to become an issue after any more than a couple of minutes stationary once up to temperature - and the current lack of a fuel gauge, I'd be inclined to agree. I guess on the plus side if I do need to remove the sender unit from the tank it will be an ideal opportunity to also fix the fuel gauge...

The Renault helpfully does only have about 1/4 a tank in currently if I remember right, so I could probably just transfer a decent amount of it over there if it comes to it. The P4 doesn't exactly waft along on fumes either so that will inevitably want fuelling up soon!
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Unread post by Hell Razor5543 »

Well, you now have a decent electric pump fitted to the Rover P6. Just run a pipe from that pump into the fuel tank of the Renault and the P4, and make sure the pump has a decent electrical supply to it.
Last edited by Hell Razor5543 on 17 Nov 2023, 06:55, edited 1 time in total.
James
ex BX 1.9
ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
ex C5 2.2HDi VTX+

Yes, I am paranoid, but am I paranoid ENOUGH?
Out amongst the stars, looking for a world of my own!