CitroJim wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 06:41
Zel, your garage makes me want to scream and order a skip
You and me both!
The big issue here isn't so much the amount of space or stuff (though the latter does play a part) so much as the shape of the garage. It's so bloody narrow and has no access from the other end that the only way in/out is to squeeze past the car. Which if you're carrying anything is a right faff...so stuff just winds up piling up around the entrance which makes the whole situation even worse!
I'd really like to get enough shelving installed at the far end that I can do away with the stuff to the right of where the car is parked so I can park further over that way to open up the walkway a bit. Sorting this out had been planned as the big project for 2020, but then well...2020 happened!
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
CitroJim wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 18:48
Always worth keeping an eye on the local sales sites for people disposing of Dexion (and similar) Zel...
If I spot any going begging I'll tip you the wink...
Most appreciated Jim. The last lot you sent my way is already up in the one corner between the compressor and the freezer (well, the compressor actually sits underneath the shelves, the receiver etc is all up well above head height out the way - but you get the idea), without that first rack of shelves I don't think I'd have been able to make that start I have! It sort of provided me the free space in the slide puzzle to start shuffling things around. I really do need to draw out a plan to figure out precisely how much more. I know that stuff ain't cheap, but I'm not beyond just buying it if needed. This garage has been a disaster area for years now and it needs sorting.
I really do need to try to nudge the guy who's said they want the old Crypton machine though. I really want to move the Sun 1215 into the garage - but I can't do that until the Crypton one has moved. Not that I can even *see* it at the moment...
Then I have the joy of moving the Sun one again...it weighs about the same as the actual sun as I recall. Getting it out of the van and into the house originally just about killed me and my husband at several points.
I do have a pretty good plan in my head of how I want to lay things out, but getting it down on paper wouldn't be the worst idea.
-- -- --
Not quite sure how I've done 600 miles in this thing already.
Simple answer is because it's so comfortable! You could do 600 miles in a couple of stints no problems. I think next on the to do list is going to be a bit of an annoying one, and that's going to be trying to sort the issues with the speedometer.
I'm sure the issue is in the cluster itself rather than a problem with the pickup on the gearbox or wiring to it. Mainly because the trip counter and odometer still increment absolutely spot on, even when the speedometer is misbehaving. I'm pretty sure there's only the one signal running into the cluster, though the wiring diagrams are an absolute nightmare to follow so I could be wrong there.
What happens when it's playing up is that the speed readout drops by a large chunk, I'd say about 1/3 of the distance from the home position. Completely at random it will decide to start working again...sometimes for a few minutes, sometimes for the remainder of the day. When it's working it's pretty much spot on accuracy wise - one of the most accurate I've ever owned actually.
I almost wonder if there's a 3-phase signal involved somewhere between the pickup and stepper (I'm assuming the needle is actuated by a stepper motor like on the Xantia rather than a voice coil for accuracy) and we're dropping a phase somewhere.
Anyhow, the panel needs to come out so I can address our intermittent warning lights, which will be either dirty lamp holder contacts, dirty edge connectors or dry joints on the panel. All of the expected ones when you turn the ignition on do *work* - but not often all at the same time! My money is on the edge connectors as when either of the banks is entirely missing, the "stop" or "service" lights also fail to light. So I don't think the signal is getting into the panel itself. I seem to recall this being a pretty common issue even when these cars were current.
If the connections into the panel turn out to be a major problem from a reliability standpoint I'm absolutely not beyond re-engineering it to use a couple of multi-pin ECU style connectors. Would be a bit of a fiddly job to set up initially but would be a lot more reliable long term I'd think.
This afternoon I decided it was time to move my attention to pretty much the furthest possible end of the spectrum to the bronze barge, and give TPA a once over with a view to getting her out over the next couple of days.
Step one, as you saw yesterday was to spend half an hour or so unearthing the poor car!
This was actually taken after I'd rolled her back in for the day, but you get the idea!
One thing which was immediately obvious was that the battery (which I was sure was on its last legs at the end of the year anyway) was absolutely dead as a doornail. It was fully charged after the last run out in November, but didn't have enough juice to even keep the clock going today.
I'm not too bothered to be honest, this one dates back to pretty much when I got KPL I think - definitely pre-dates TPA hitting the road again, and is just a U1R battery as used on lawn mowers etc, and is about half the price of most car batteries - so even if I only get a three years or so out of this one I'm not going to worry.
Oil and brake fluid levels were exactly where I'd left them - though I do need to check my records, she may be due an oil change.
With the fresh battery fitted, I rolled her outside, started her up and wedged the throttle open enough to get us to a fast idle and run the engine up to temperature.
Well, as far up to temperature as you can while parked anyway. About 110C is the highest I think you'll ever see unless actually driving. There's no thermostat on either the air control baffles (as on some VWs) or on the oil cooler feed, so off load she's quite over-cooled.
Got the clock reset, had a good crawl around the engine bay to check the condition of the fuel lines, filter etc, checked tyre pressures and gave the windscreen a clean. If the weather is playing nice tomorrow I think she'll make the first appearance of the year to run the day's errands with me.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
New battery fitted yesterday, which looks surprisingly like the old one albeit a little less dusty.
Out and about for the first time this year. She doesn't seem really worse for wear - though it's only been a couple of months really! The handbrake does feel a little gummy though so I think some fresh grease may well be in order there.
Hopefully we will be seeing her out and about more as the year progresses.
I think one upgrade that will be ordered up shortly will be a solid state voltage regulator for the generator, as I've noted that when running at speed with a fully charged battery we're seeing close to 15V. So that's not going to be doing our battery or the electrical system any favours.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
Package arrived this morning containing the correct handbook for the Renault.
As a couple of folks had correctly pointed out, the one that came with the car was for a Phase 2 car, so wasn't the original.
Now I just need to find a copy of the Renault Audio handbook which would have accompanied it.
The Renault is also in the bad books today as it broke something without me even touching it.
Not immediately obvious, but the rear of that sunroof has dropped. I shut the driver's door and heard something go *thud...tink...rattle...* from right above my head.
It appears that the sliding section isn't actually properly attached to the sled - as I have to manually push the panel back though the mechanism is clearly moving freely. It will close itself up to the point when the rear should pop up to sit flush with the roof.
Things are not all well. I'm guessing things like this shouldn't be sitting in the gutters.
I can see similar looking things on the driver's side and bits of broken black plastic.
I have a horrible feeling that even if I can find (or make) replacements for whatever has broken, that installing it is going to involve having to remove the whole cassette...which will mean removing the headlining. Sure that will be an absolute barrel of laughs...
I wouldn't mind so much if I'd tried to open the sunroof, but I'd been deliberately NOT attempting to open it until later in the year!
So instead I took TPA out again for running today's errands.
Wound up covering just under 90 miles between running several local errands and a run over to Bicester to pick up some developed film.
Added to my to do list for this year (hopefully) is what would normally be the front crankshaft seal (the one at the pulley end), as it leaves a couple of drips when the engine is switched off. Doesn't seem to leak appreciably when running and she's never used any appreciable oil between changes, but there's definitely a bit of seepage going on shortly after stopping. That's going to be a bit of a faff to change as the rear engine mount is just *slightly* in the way.
Not worrying about it, but want to get it on the to do list formally while it's in my mind.
Also I really need to get the car jacked up and have a good crawl around underneath. I've had a lot of stuff apart on this car, and she's done a decent number of miles since I bolted everything back together now.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
That looks a bit of a pig Zel, I hate working on sunroofs as you just know it will probably leak when you've finished! I assume this means you will be bringing TPA to The George tomorrow then?
I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure!
I used to ride on two wheels, but now I need all four!
The sunroof at least being of this type and for the most part closed doesn't seem to be letting any rain in. Rather has just added another rattle to the cabin and a bit more wind noise. Not going to panic too much about it. Step 1 there I think will be seeing if I can find a diagram of the mechanism to see if I can easily figure out what has failed *before* taking half the car apart.
Package arrived today for one of the fleet. Far quicker than I'd expected as I had assumed this was coming from the far side of the planet rather than from a UK seller.
Which contained this.
Which for those who don't immediately recognise it is a solid state replacement for the old points style voltage regulator for the generator on TPA.
Mine has always been a bit sick I think, with the cut in point being higher than it really should be, and the cut out...well...not cutting out as the revs increase. With the CVT and limitations of the system, it stays pretty sane when driving around town - but with a fully charged battery winds up with nearly 16V showing on the voltmeter on the open road. Not good.
These are components that were very much things of their time.
Diagram borrowed from the Invacar workshop manual.
They're also finicky to adjust...requiring tiny metal tabs to be bent in even more tiny increments, and will then behave differently when the case is refitted. This is one of those situations where semiconductors allowed for a device to come along which does a car more accurate, efficient and stable job. They're something which the air cooled VW guys seem to swear by, and are basically a standard fit upgrade on Beetles and early Transporters, where it's awkward to upgrade to an alternator unless you've got very deep pockets because of how it's set up (quite similar to on the Invacar if I remember right, bolted to the back of the cooling fan).
Obviously there are limitations to what you can get out of a generator, but upgrading to one of these should be a good way to get the system to work as efficiently as it can. Plus it should be a "fit and forget" upgrade.
Interesting to see it's made as two distinct modules.
My guess is that the lower section contains the brains of the operation, with several beefy semiconductors attached to the underneath of the top section, using the lid as a heatsink. You can see everything is potted here as well - a further bonus over the mechanical regulator as it should render it far less prone to issues with moisture and dust ingress - especially living right behind the nearside rear wheel!
A few minutes with the respective wiring diagrams easily figured out what goes where.
Plus I checked and the bracket mounting points are (as expected) identical to the originals so it should bolt straight in place.
Only thing I will need to change will be to re-terminate three of the connections as the original uses horseshoe connectors and bolt down terminals, whereas all but the main generator output terminal on the new one are spades. That's hardly a major headache though - even think I know where the wire strippers are.
Given the B+ terminal has two connectors on it here, I will probably add a direct battery connection in heavier gauge wire too - the one running between the B+ terminal and positive side of the starter solenoid (where the system taps into the battery positive as standard) looks distinctly weedy for something which could be carrying up to 20A at full output with a low battery.
Sadly I simply ran out of mental energy for today, so final installation will have to wait for the weekend.
Given the potential for expensive or hard to find things to get broken or catch fire if I foul it up, this just doesn't seem to be a job to be doing if feeling less than 100%.
Shouldn't be the worst job though - I reckon getting the bolts holding the existing regulator down out is likely to be one of the biggest fights.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
Well that wasn't too bad a job, bit fiddly, but not too bad.
As with any real electrical work, step 1 is to disconnect the battery and tuck the negative connection well out the way. The positive is also disconnected here as the isolator is also open. The only thing that bypasses that is the supply to the clock and only the clock, and that's got a 1A fuse on only a few inches from the battery.
I attacked everything in the vicinity with a bit of carb cleaner to try to get some of the near 50 years of gunge off the wiring so I could actually see what colours they were. Rather than black, black or black.
Quickly came to the conclusion that the generator output terminal was indeed going to get a new terminal fitted along with the rest.
One extracted old regulator.
None of the original connections looked exactly stellar.
It was then a "simple" matter of dropping the new unit in, crimping some new terminals on and connecting everything up.
It should be noted that while my crimping tool produces exceptionally scruffy looking crimps, in my experience they have always been absolutely reliable. Unlike the nice neat looking ones from three separate fancy ratcheting tools.
Getting things wired up was by far the biggest hassle, kind of as I'd expected. The original wiring, especially the dash indicator and B+ lines, was basically exactly as long as it needed to be for the original regulator. The new one aside from having lifted the terminals up an inch or so, also flipped the positions of two to opposite sides of the unit. Thankfully the lines running to the dynastart are in their own loom, which I was able to just wriggle enough extra slack into to make reach. Otherwise I would have had to faff about extending wires. I'd have liked for there to be a little more slack in the field line and the generator output line is now too long, but that I can trim down a bit in due course...I'd rather swap that I line fuse holder out for one with a less obscenely hard to find in an emergency in 2023 blade fuse holder anyway. Though I do need to ascertain what the actual rating I'd need. I can never remember which is which between which type of use is rated by the blow current versus the continuous rating.
I've been slowly bit by bit getting rid of the old glass fuses in this car. It's one of those situations where I'm happy to sacrifice a bit of originality for practicality. You can't just walk into any motor factors and pick up the old type any more (at least in my neck of the woods!), so replacing them with something I can get pretty much anywhere just makes sense. Especially when one of the fuses in this car can disable the entire electrical system!
I then triple and quadruple checked my wiring matched the directions, and added a new direct link between the B+ terminal and the starter solenoid positive post that's more than rated to handle the full output current from the generator. The wiring from there to the battery has already long since been upgraded to something reasonably chunky as the originals that came with the car were both pretty well rotten and were skinnier than the lines from my cheap Halfords battery charger. Given the locked rotor amp rating for the starter is 300A, I imagine the original leads would have got a little toasty and dropped quite a few volts.
I want to go back and add some heat shrink to the uninsulated terminals and to tidy things up a bit, but it's installed.
Of course the unnerving bit was next up, reconnecting the battery and seeing if anything would smoke. Thankfully it didn't.
Of course the big question then would be once the engine was started, whether the generator would generate and if it would in fact be regulated in anything resembling a sane manner.
Previously it would sit resolutely off charge at idle. I wasn't really expecting to see any appreciable output at idle, but we do now have some output even at idle.
Which pretty much as soon as you bring the revs up at all it springs up to here.
Which creeps slightly further up at higher revs to spot on 14V.
Even better, the generator can actually keep up when the headlights are on, which it couldn't before. The general behaviour just looks far more reasonable.
Previously it would just about start generating appreciably above 2000rpm or so, with the voltage just creeping slowly upwards as the revs went up - to nearly 16V at 60 or so, can't remember exactly what that equates to, but somewhere around 4000rpm.
Of course with the new unit in and working, you know what this means...autopsy time!
Well the first obvious sign of issues with the old regulator is that the ballast resistor core has cracked. Though the actual wire *looks* intact. I've not checked it with a meter though.
The cover had obviously never been off because the wax seal over the screw head was still intact.
I was quite surprised when I pulled the cover off given the condition of the exterior.
A bit of moisture has obviously got in, but given the state of the exterior not anywhere near as much as I'd have expected.
Quite an impressive contraption. Though kind of redundant in these days of high power semiconductors really. I would be curious to compare the performance of a mechanical and electronic regulator in actual working order, though I imagine it's long term stability and efficiency where the electronic version will really win out.
Will be interesting to see how this behaves when actually driving, but static testing seems promising.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
Excellent work Zel Those old regulators were well put together band very reliable - generally... I only had one fail on an R4. The regulator contacts welded together and ferociously overcharged the battery...
Interesting the semiconductor one has made such a difference but looking at the condition of the old terminations and high current carrying bits of the old unit I suspect there was a bit of resistance lurking around!
Jim
Runner, cyclist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
CitroJim wrote: 19 Feb 2023, 10:15
Excellent work Zel Those old regulators were well put together band very reliable - generally... I only had one fail on an R4. The regulator contacts welded together and ferociously overcharged the battery...
Interesting the semiconductor one has made such a difference but looking at the condition of the old terminations and high current carrying bits of the old unit I suspect there was a bit of resistance lurking around!
Yes, there definitely was an extent of parasitic resistance being introduced into things with the old one. There definitely was some contamination on the contact surface of the various points sets as well though never having had one of these apart before I've no idea how clean I should expect them to look.
There's also an element simply of age there. It's a physical device with moving parts including bits of spring steel which is knocking on the door of 50 years old, so no matter how reliable they may have been when new or newer, failures are going to be more of an issue by this point.
The old one was obviously still working to some extent or I'd have had a parasitic battery drain through the generator (albeit potentially masked by the fact that I use a battery isolator - though you'd think I'd have noticed the ignition light glowing), but quite evidently wasn't working 100%. I suspect with a more powerful generator we would have seen a major overcharge situation here as I don't think the cutout at the high voltage end was doing much of anything. I reckon it was largely just the limitations of the system and the ability of lead acid batteries to absorb an astonishing amount of abuse that was keeping things in check.
I do need to sit down with a schematic and the original regulator though simply to figure out how it actually works. There is a part of me which if it weren't such a faff would like to clean up all the terminations, clean up the contact points on the original and *then* see how the performance would compare to the electronic one. Never know, it might happen one day!
The fact it still worked at all after spending a couple of decades largely open to the elements is definitely testament to it being pretty well put together.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
It looks to me to be a fairly standard Compensated Voltage Control Regulator and cutout Zel...
You can tell if it is of the compensated variety as the regulator will have two windings on it, a series and a shunt...
The contacts might look quite polished and clean as the regulator vibrates to control the charging current; the vibration frequency effectively switching the field resistor in and out of circuit. This controls the current flowing in the Dynastart field winding and thus regulates the output voltage. There's not a huge current flowing through the contacts so pitting is unlikely and they're intended to slide a little to keep them clean...
Being electromechanical and not fully compensated for all eventualities, the electronic version will be more effective for sure...
So yes, age and all that vibrating will cause a drift of characteristics over time...
The cutout isolates the Dynastart from the battery if the Dynastart output voltage is less than the battery voltage to prevent a backflow of current from the battery back into the Dynastart.
The cutout contacts are bigger than those on the regulator as they pass more current. As they positively make and break and qquite infrequently they too shoukld be found in good condition..
A standard automotive dynamo will operate quite happily as a motor if it were not for the ccutout! It'll soon flatten the battery in this mode too... And get hot...
Apologies if you know all this already Zel...
Jim
Runner, cyclist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Yesterday really was the perfect day for it!
