Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.
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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Unread post by Zelandeth »

Decision made. Jag isn't getting abandoned on the drive until spring entirely.

I can get a pair of general purpose Nankang tyres in the 205/70 15 size that's currently on there fitted for £65 each. That will get the car back into a safe and drivable state - bearing in mind they're replacing 17 year old, unevenly worn and badly out of round Corsas I'm not going to quibble over the 10mm size difference to spec, it's still going to be an absolutely massive improvement. I'd not have known had I not looked in the handbook anyway that they were fractionally too small. We're not talking putting a space saver on or anything daft, they're still plenty chunky.

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I'll then get it stuck in for an MOT at either my usual or another known classic friendly garage and see if that leaves me with anything else other than my current known list.

In the spring, assuming everything else has been sorted without incident (and the MOT tester doesn't just condemn the car!) I'll then look to get a full set of Vredstein Sprint Classics in the correct 215/70 15 size fitted. I just really don't want to drop the best part of a grand on tyres until the car's got a year's ticket on it. Especially knowing that if the rear brakes need any work that at today's labour rates you're probably going to be looking at a quote starting at £500 before they've even picked up a spanner.

Once it's got some serviceable tyres on and the front discs/pads changed she can come out on the occasional dry day through the winter. Given that I don't have any covered storage that's probably honestly better than just leaving the car sitting for the next three months. We all know that the thing highly strung cars like this hate more than anything is disuse. Just look back at when I first got it. Have said it before and no doubt will again, I really wish I had somewhere under cover (or at the very least on tarmac!) to store it over the winter. Sadly even if I were to magically empty my garage overnight and evict the Invacar, it's still a good 4" wider than the garage door. In 1981 when our house was built they predicted as was the trend at the time, that cars in the future would be smaller. The one guess they got wrong!

Plus I'd really rather have a backup roadworthy car on hand in case I have problems with the Xantia (not that I commute or anything so it's purely convenience for errand running!). The whole being a single seater slightly limits the applications I can use the Invacar for in that field. Bit annoying that I'd been planning to get a few things on the Xantia sorted with Jim shortly, but being back under house arrest like everyone else scuppers that plan for the time being. Not really sure where we'd stand with the rules at the moment meeting to sort stuff on the car...would probably be deemed unnecessary and that I should just take it to a garage for the repairs to be done.

...We saw how well that went last time!

Hopefully a "simple" sphere change should be pretty quick at least. Given how limited miles I do the rest can wait until things are relaxed again, I just want to get the rear spheres swapped before I wind up breaking something as the nearside has very limited travel left at the moment.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
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CitroJim
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Unread post by CitroJim »

Good plan to keep the Jag running Zel, cars deteriorate very rapidly outdoors when unused for any length of time...

The reason I worked so hard to garage Daffodil...

Fingers crossed on the MoT [-o< When are you planning to have it done?

As for the legality of doing any work on the Xantia, it's a very grey area... Two can meet up outdoors for recreation and in theory, as we'll be working outdoors on what is to us, recreation, we could get away with it...

We can't 'bubble' as I already am with Robyn...

Problem is, you could not go in my house or garage!

Still, it's only for a month - we hope - and it'll have soon passed ;)

And for me moment, looking after the MX-5 has left me very short of space with now, no alternative places I can park :(
Jim

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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Unread post by Zelandeth »

It's just poor timing all round really!
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Unread post by Zelandeth »

All right...time to quit procrastinating and actually attack the to do list.

Biggest urgent item is to try to stop the Jag filling up with water.

This has been a pretty sunny day, it's obvious there's standing water in there.

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While I had already pulled the front carpet out on the offside I'd not touched the rear.

Oops.

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Yep... that's been holding on to a bit of water.

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I punched out the bungs in that vicinity to allow the water to drain from the car for now.

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I wanted to take a closer look at the rear to make sure we didn't have significant amounts of water getting in through the rear window so pulled out the rear seat. I know there can be issues with these cars where water can pool under the rear seats if the rear window leaks.

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While I did find large amounts of dog hair, aside from a little condensation there was no water to be found happily.

The nearside carpets were slightly damp but not actually hiding standing water.

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I've removed them from the car to be taken inside and thoroughly dried out for now.

One of the main areas I knew water was getting in was via the heater.

I had it in my head that I'd already checked the scuttle drains though the evidence found today suggests otherwise.

Hard to see here but this drain is full of water. A pint or so ran out of the heater intake box when I pulled this off.

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When I reverse flushed this with the hose pipe, a solid 4" plug of compacted decomposing organic matter was ejected. No wonder I've been having water ingress problems! Both sides were exactly the same. I reckon these drains have been clogged for a very long time.

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Daft design though, the widest point in the whole drain is right at the top...with each join from there on getting smaller. It's just asking to get clogged. Passenger side is easy to get at at least, though the driver's side is awkward an you have to remove the offside air filter and wriggle it out around the brake master cylinder.

The other issues I had had with the heater were twofold. Firstly was a stubborn refusal to reliably blow hot air and secondly a continual cold draugt oh my left knee.

I think there are two issues here. Firstly is that something is amiss with the control logic and/or the Heath Robinson collection of motorised cams and vacuum actuators which control the heater assembly.

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The level of complexity and lack of access look like fun!

I was hoping to figure out what's where when it's blowing hot then be able to temporarily lock it in that position...however you just can't see or get at it well enough. I'll need to fault find the control system I think.

I quickly discovered that the blue thing which is the plenum sitting between the heater blower and the box containing the heater matrix were not actually attached to each other. You can see there's a good 1/2" of a gap at the end of the ducts.

The copper you can see there is actually inside the heater box itself.

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The moment I touched this it just fell out. Wasn't attached at the top either.

This turned out to be Rather Annoying.

Turns out getting his thing back into position is *incredibly* awkward.

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It needs to bridge the gap between the stubs arrowed in this image.

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After somewhere between three and four hours of arguing with it while literally laying upside down in the footwell I gave up for the day. I just cannot for love nor money get the plenum to fit over the rectangular stub on the blower.

All the guides to servicing or replacing the blower motors seem to suggest attaching it to the blower before refitting it. So I'll probably need to get the whole blower out. Yay.

I guess on the plus side it was going to have to happen eventually to sort the speed controller anyway...but I was hoping to make this a quick job!

Patience is definitely something you need working on these cars! You can be sure that Jaguar's designers will never let you down with regards to finding new and exciting ways to make an easy job incredibly difficult.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
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Michel
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Unread post by Michel »

You’re allowed to go outside with one other person for recreation. The “rules” do not state what form that recreation has to take. I see no issue with working on cars with a friend as long as precautions are taken.

I’ll be going out on my motorbike for an hour or so tomorrow morning. It’s outdoors, it’s recreation. Clearly, alone, with a helmet, I’m no danger to anyone. I have a mask and sanitiser in my tank bag.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Unread post by xantia_v6 »

I have recommissioned a few of those Jaguar air conditioning systems over the years. They can be quite challenging and counter-intuitive.

Advice number 1: Don't waste any more time on the blue hose before diagnosing the system to work out what needs to be dismantled to fix it.

Some preliminary checks: The system is partly controlled by vacuum bellows and valves. A quick sanity test of the vacuum system is to see if the recirculation flaps in the footwells are operating correctly. After the car has been sitting for a while with the engine stopped, the recirculation flaps in the footwells should be closed. Starting the engine with the A/C switched OFF should cause the recirculation flaps in both footwells to open. Switching the A/C to LO at maximum temperature should cause the recirculation flaps to close.

With the ignition on and A/C set to LO, you should hear the servo motor move as you move the temperature control, don,t worry if the servo does not seem to respond at the ends of the temperature setting range, but do worry a little if (with the temperature set to one extreme or the other) the servo continually hunts and never finds a stable position.

Be aware that there is a vacuum operated shutoff valve in the heater hose, and these often corrode internally, becoming too stiff for the vacuum bellows to operate them reliably, there is also a 40° thermal switch in the water feed into the matrix, which shuts off the fans until the engine is warm, if the system is trying to provide heat. It is easy to get confused if the water valve is jammed closed, preventing hot water from getting to the thermal switch, causing the fans to be inoperative even when the engine is warm.

The speed control relay is below the A/C box, reasonably accessible on the passenger side, The speed control resistors are in the main heater box at the top on the passenger side, but these are normally very reliable.
Last edited by xantia_v6 on 08 Nov 2020, 08:51, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed description of speed control resistors
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CitroJim
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Unread post by CitroJim »

Gosh Zel :shock: And I thought Xantias were a bit on the complex side!!!

Somehow, the XJ-S complexity appeals to me... A proper challenge :)

And proper fun ;)
Jim

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Unread post by bobins »

XJ-S heater logic.........
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Unread post by mickthemaverick »

bobins wrote: 08 Nov 2020, 11:10 XJ-S heater logic.........

Image
Are you sure that's the heater logic and not the tyre pressure formulae bobins? :-D
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Unread post by CitroJim »

Bobins and Mick, all I have to say is...

🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Unread post by mickthemaverick »

Zel this just sold for £8750 provisionally! :)

https://angliacarauctions.co.uk/classic ... nvertible/
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Unread post by Zelandeth »

xantia_v6 wrote: 08 Nov 2020, 03:09 I have recommissioned a few of those Jaguar air conditioning systems over the years. They can be quite challenging and counter-intuitive.

Advice number 1: Don't waste any more time on the blue hose before diagnosing the system to work out what needs to be dismantled to fix it.

Some preliminary checks: The system is partly controlled by vacuum bellows and valves. A quick sanity test of the vacuum system is to see if the recirculation flaps in the footwells are operating correctly. After the car has been sitting for a while with the engine stopped, the recirculation flaps in the footwells should be closed. Starting the engine with the A/C switched OFF should cause the recirculation flaps in both footwells to open. Switching the A/C to LO at maximum temperature should cause the recirculation flaps to close.

With the ignition on and A/C set to LO, you should hear the servo motor move as you move the temperature control, don,t worry if the servo does not seem to respond at the ends of the temperature setting range, but do worry a little if (with the temperature set to one extreme or the other) the servo continually hunts and never finds a stable position.

Be aware that there is a vacuum operated shutoff valve in the heater hose, and these often corrode internally, becoming too stiff for the vacuum bellows to operate them reliably, there is also a 40° thermal switch in the water feed into the matrix, which shuts off the fans until the engine is warm, if the system is trying to provide heat. It is easy to get confused if the water valve is jammed closed, preventing hot water from getting to the thermal switch, causing the fans to be inoperative even when the engine is warm.

The speed control relay is below the A/C box, reasonably accessible on the passenger side, The speed control resistors are in the main heater box at the top on the passenger side, but these are normally very reliable.
Few things needing separate responses here...

[] Shut off vacuum solenoid in engine bay. Thank you for explaining what that does. I knew (by experimentation) it cut off flown to the heater matrix when pulled in, but not the conditions under which it should operate. I will reinstate its vacuum feed and see if it drops out once the engine has been running long enough to get some heat in. It was disabled while I was trying to ascertain why it would only give me heat when it felt like it. This moves freely and smoothly I'm glad to report.

[] Fans. Being a HE this doesn't have the resistive ballast for the fans, instead using a transistorised speed controller more similar to the ones in a Xantia, if my reading is correct. Apparently there's a Darlington transistor which routinely fails. My fans both work, but only when the control is set to high or demist (or auto when it deems the fans should be running at full speed). Quite prepared to be proven wrong there by those who know these cars better, I'm still very much learning.

It's worth noting that the fans will work here from the moment the ignition is turned on...so if there's meant to be an inhibitor locking them out in heating more below a 40C coolant temperature, that doesn't seem to be working.

[] Temperature servo. This definitely does operate. My suspicions are that one or several of the following are going on...

A: the cabin temperature sensor value has drifted so it thinks it's far warmer than it is.
B: The sampling hose has come adrift so it's actually measuring the temperature right next to the heater box.
C: One of the directional flap actuators is sticky or weak.
D: The control logic has lost its marbles.

Getting decent heat out of it has always been an issue, though I now know why a lot of cold air was being ejected from under the dash (probably not actually from the floor level vents as I thought) as the driver's side blower wasn't attached to the heater box.

With it set to demist mode (which as I understand it should bypass the temperature regulation system and just set it to full hot with fans on full and air distribution set to 90% windscreen, 10% cabin) it will usually supply warm air for a few minutes, after which you hear a flap flip over and suddenly the airflow switches to stone cold. Sometimes cycling the control to off and back will get another few mins of heat, but not always. I'm not sure if this is a control issue, or if one of the flaps is just getting pushed over centre by the airflow and sticking in the wrong position.

You do always hear the little control servo motor(s?) wake up when you turn the ignition on, and the recirc flaps appear to work as designed based on your description. Though admittedly recirc is something I'd really rather have manual control over... especially until the air conditioning is back up and running fully. Suffice to say trying to demist a damp car without AC with it in recirc mode is an exercise in futility.
CitroJim wrote: 08 Nov 2020, 08:56 Gosh Zel :shock: And I thought Xantias were a bit on the complex side!!!

Somehow, the XJ-S complexity appeals to me... A proper challenge :)

And proper fun ;)
The complexity wouldn't be half as much of a headache if they hadn't made 90% of things so hard to get to. Pretty much every component on this car feels like it's just been crammed into place, completely irrespective of whether there was actually space for it or whether you might need access to it.

There must be a couple of dozen relays for example just floating around behind the trim panels in the footwells. I can see brackets a few have escaped from but there are far more in there than I can see fixings for! Everything you take off there is just "stuff" crammed behind.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 88 Renault 25 Monaco, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 75 Rover 3500, 73 AC Model 70.
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CitroJim
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Unread post by CitroJim »

Zelandeth wrote: 08 Nov 2020, 15:33
CitroJim wrote: 08 Nov 2020, 08:56 Gosh Zel :shock: And I thought Xantias were a bit on the complex side!!!

Somehow, the XJ-S complexity appeals to me... A proper challenge :)

And proper fun ;)
The complexity wouldn't be half as much of a headache if they hadn't made 90% of things so hard to get to. Pretty much every component on this car feels like it's just been crammed into place, completely irrespective of whether there was actually space for it or whether you might need access to it.

There must be a couple of dozen relays for example just floating around behind the trim panels in the footwells. I can see brackets a few have escaped from but there are far more in there than I can see fixings for! Everything you take off there is just "stuff" crammed behind.
It suggests that rather than being designed the car evolved :roll: A bit how the XUD 1.9TD diesel evolved from the NA 1.9 and in doing so made some things really hard to get to... Such as the cambelt, oil filter, glowplugs and exhaust manifold... When it 'evolved' EGR it got even worse :twisted:
Jim

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Unread post by Hell Razor5543 »

CitroJim wrote: 08 Nov 2020, 08:56 Gosh Zel :shock: And I thought Xantias were a bit on the complex side!!!

Somehow, the XJ-S complexity appeals to me... A proper challenge :)

And proper fun ;)
Hmm. I think (once lockdown is over) there could be a wonderful partnership here. Zel gets to enjoy driving the big Cat, while Jim gets to tinker with her innards!
James
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Unread post by CitroJim »

Hell Razor5543 wrote: 08 Nov 2020, 15:48
CitroJim wrote: 08 Nov 2020, 08:56 Gosh Zel :shock: And I thought Xantias were a bit on the complex side!!!

Somehow, the XJ-S complexity appeals to me... A proper challenge :)

And proper fun ;)
Hmm. I think (once lockdown is over) there could be a wonderful partnership here. Zel gets to enjoy driving the big Cat, while Jim gets to tinker with her innards!
That could work out well James 🙂
Jim

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