Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

1.7 litre displacement apparently. The block looks suspiciously similar to the normal Lada block to all of the petrol units, albeit with the oil filter moved back a ways, hinting at there being more internal differences.

Throttle linkage there is positively simplistic compared to the one used on the carb Riva, which is downright ridiculous. The first photo I'm not convinced is the actual factory diesel, it took a bit of poking around to find one that was definitely the right engine. Curious now as to what other technical info I can find on it.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by ekjdm14 »

Actually, now I'm back on the laptop that in-car engine looks totally wrong. For a start I don't think they'd have hidden the oil filler cap under the air inlet, that gas regulator looking thing would be blocking the dipstick & I'm not sure the water pipe that makes a sharp 90 degree turn round the cambelt cover would have been original either... there's probably more that I've missed but that's enough for me to be 95% certain it's no Lada unit in there...
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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

Yep, it's definitely not right. This is the only in-car photo I immediately found (albeit a small one).

Image

Tricky bit of finding info is that it was only sold in Russia, so finding documents about it in English is a challenge. Seems that the power unit was mostly developed for tractors, generators etc (hence the very conservative power figure) but someone figured let's stick it in the Niva and Riva and see what happens.

The first one (the oil filler is accessible, right at the back of the cam cover) I reckon is likely another Fiat or derivative diesel that someone has retrofitted.

Edit: Looking at it again, that's not a Lada engine bay...reckon it's actually a Moscovich!
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by ekjdm14 »

Haha I noticed the oil filler after I posted, another definite pointer to it not being the engine in the other photo!

What sort of power does the VAZ unit put out? I can imagine the driving experience being a little less refined but just as leisurely as a certain black car with a slushbox...

Another engine that, in a car, would benefit from what I was thinking would help the Xantia no end too. That being a CVT gearbox. It'd suit the narrow power band of the NA diesels really well & make for even more refined travel if set up to act as a true CVT with no shift steps...
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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

Having to do a bit of translation in my head (Google Translate struggles with technical documents!) seems to suggest somewhere in the region of 50-60bhp and around 90NM (66Lb/ft) of torque. Conservative by automotive standards, but right in the ball park for what's essentially an industrial engine of that sort of size.

I imagine performance would be broadly similar to the original 1200 petrol engine which had slightly more power but slightly less torque. A bit lethargic by our standards, but certainly still usable.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by ekjdm14 »

Given that I'd expect the Riva (if not Niva) to weigh a little less than a Xantia, I would say broadly the same power/weight as our NA then. Certainly no ball of fire but, as you say, quite usable... Not at all bad for an in-house effort either considering the XUD in 1.9 litre form is only around 8bhp up on the higher figure, but are they reliable in the same extreme? (being Russian makes me think yes).
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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

Riva is 995kg in saloon and 1020kg in estate form if I remember right. The Niva is approximately 1200kg thanks to the additional hardware for the 4WD system.
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CitroJim
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

With that kind of power output it should go on for ever and a day Zel ;)

Engines derived from industrial sources are normally very bullet-proof, resistant to abuse and long-lived...

One big exception was the Hillman Imp engine. That one was derived from the Coventry Climax Lightweight Fire Pump but it never inherited its toughness. The Imp engine was well known to be rather fragile in the head area but that was in part (and only in part) not helped by mechanics not understanding how to deal with alloy heads and blocks along with marginal cooling...

That said, it was (and is) a bloody excellent little engine and very advanced at the times of it's début - being an all-alloy OHC unit that loved to rev and had loads of tuning potential - HG allowing!
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by myglaren »

^ I kept 3 Imp engines on the go - one fixed and ready to drop in, one being fixed and one in the car ready to blow :(
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

myglaren wrote:^ I kept 3 Imp engines on the go - one fixed and ready to drop in, one being fixed and one in the car ready to blow :(


:rofl2:

A bit like what Mazda RX-8 owners do then ;) They say an RX-8 engine exists in two states.. About to die or dead...
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Re: RE: Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by mickeymoon »

CitroJim wrote:
myglaren wrote:^ I kept 3 Imp engines on the go - one fixed and ready to drop in, one being fixed and one in the car ready to blow :(


:rofl2:

A bit like what Mazda RX-8 owners do then ;) They say an RX-8 engine exists in two states.. About to die or dead...
I looked into buying an RX-8 back in 2011. I spoke to a Mazda independent specialist near Reading. They said the main problem with RX-8s is main dealers using the wrong oil, and skimping on plug changes. Ends up with a dead engine.

They buy the dead ones up, fit them with factory engines and sell them again for 6 or 7 grand.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by elma »

Only one I ever knew lasted a matter of weeks as the owner didn't realise you need to put a litre of oil in at every second tank of fuel. Costly mistake.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

You would really think that with oil consumption that high that they would include a level indicator on the dash like on the Xantia...

This evening turned into a bit of a real-time version of the last 60 minutes of build time in an episode of Scrapheap Challenge. I'd got done routing my temporary rigid fuel line, and realised there were really two tasks left before a longer test run. Routing the loom into the engine bay and connecting a power supply to the fuel pump. At that point I decided I was getting that engine running again tonight and that this wasn't up for negotiation. I didn't have an opposing team to intimidate with the sound of a working machine, but that wasn't the point...this was probably around 1930.

The loom will need to come out again as I need to enlarge the hole in the bulkhead slightly, and some bits of it need to be lengthened/shortened a bit simply due to the Riva engine bay being a slightly different shape to that of the donor Niva. Just about managed to convince the battery lead to reach though.

Also I'm obviously still lacking a way to get the Lambda sensor out so will need to revisit that shortly.

However in a frantic flurry of activity I got the fuel pump secured, attached a power supply to it (just slung over the seats from the passenger footwell for now), used a convenient nearby earth terminal to ground it and then spent a manic fifteen minutes plugging connectors in and checking I hadn't done anything daft.

I then did something daft and forgot to plug in my 12V "system enable" line and spent 10 minutes wondering why the fuel pump wouldn't run. Idiot.

With that in and a couple of seconds of grumbling from the fuel pump as the system primed, it then fired up beautifully.

At that point I declared victory over the rapidly diminishing daylight and called it a night. Next step will be fine tuning stuff. Attaching the ECU and relay block to the bulkhead somewhere, extending and rerouting the battery supply cabling, wiring up the check engine light and seeing if I can at least temporarily wire in my existing Lambda sensor being next on the list.

Edit: also found an offcut of bicycle gear cable which was perfect to tie up the exhaust on the 107 so it's not rattling. I'm honestly not worried about it blowing just now as it's not making any discernable extra noise beyond being a bit raspier - and that requires the seats to be down to hear.

Other edit: The gear selector light has stopped working in the Saab. Bet the wire has snapped off the holder (again), will need to fix that sharpish as it will drive me mad otherwise. It's head gasket is definitely blown, but not badly as yet. I suspect it's actually been that way for a while but I only noticed recently. I'm keeping it limited to local duties though just in case. The 107 being off commuting duty has made that easier though.
mickeymoon

Re: RE: Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by mickeymoon »

Zelandeth wrote:You would really think that with oil consumption that high that they would include a level indicator on the dash like on the Xantia...
They have a reliable oil level warning light which comes on well before danger level to tell you to put some in. Much like a fuel warning light.

Main dealers using the wrong oil and screwing engines is/was a great problem.
elma
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by elma »

Good work on the injection, sounds like you'll be done in almost no time now.

I know what you mean about the gear selector light. It didn't take me long to learn where the gears are on my Xantia but the letters not illuminating bugged the hell out of me. I don't even look but knowing they aren't lit is just unacceptable.

RX8s shouldn't really need an oil light anyway, they use about 1L every 2 tanks of fuel so the owner should be totally on top of the amount in the ?sump? Do Wankel engines have sumps? With that rate of use wrong oils wouldn't be in there for all that long.