Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

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mickeymoon

Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by mickeymoon »

CitroJim wrote:
mickeymoon wrote: I got a crazy reaction in the bowl which shifted the blockage!


The reverse of the crazy reaction that caused the blockage in the first place :lol:


No, it was a curious child shoving cardboard tubes down the bog!

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CitroJim
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

mickeymoon wrote:
CitroJim wrote:
mickeymoon wrote: I got a crazy reaction in the bowl which shifted the blockage!


The reverse of the crazy reaction that caused the blockage in the first place :lol:


No, it was a curious child shoving cardboard tubes down the bog!


:lol: As they do!!! We all did. It's the law as a kid!

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

The parts prices are very much one of the fun parts of running one of these cars.

Having made a zillion of them for 40 odd years helps too...

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

So decided today (after spending several hours doing battle with the garden) to swap out the rocker cover gasket on the Lada given the copious amounts of oil that it tends to dump all over the engine. Won't be till later in the week that the alternator brushes arrive, so may as well get what I can done while the engine bay is in pieces.

You know what folks say about being prepared for routine maintenance and all that, so no great surprise that I had this in stock already...
IMG_20170430_163039.jpg
Simple enough job. Air cleaner off, then remove the 8 nuts that hold the cover in place, remove it, clean up and reassemble...right?

Pretty much actually - though there are a couple of hoses you need to shift out the way to get enough clearance. Firstly the return line to the fuel tank - which came free before I'd touched the hose clip...cue a brief "...?" moment. Turns out that the barb the hose is meant to attach to actually pulled clean out of the carb...Not entirely helpful.
IMG_20170430_165440.jpg
So that's something I'll need to address shortly as well.

It's fiddly to get the cover off thanks to how close to the bulkhead it is, but didn't take too long to do. Reckon it would be a lot easier on an earlier car because there would be far, far less in the way of hoses to get in the way.

Still, got it off after a bit of a wrestling match. The sheer amount of sealant that had been used before meant that a bit of brute force was also needed.
IMG_20170430_165854.jpg
Looking at the state of the old gasket, not really surprised it was leaking.
IMG_20170430_165842.jpg
This was further assisted by the fact that the previous "mechanic" seemed to have thought that the best solution to a leaky rocker cover was to tighten it to downright ridiculous levels. So much so in fact that the base of the rocker cover isn't anywhere close to flat any more. I've dropped Tom an email about this to see whether one to suit a 1.7i Niva is available, as that would be handy for my EFi project as it has a bracket attached for the fuel lines - but either way a new cover is £30, so I'll probably just grab a new one anyhow rather than faffing around trying to find a decent secondhand one that hasn't suffered the same fate as mine.

So here we go, a Lada engine with its timing gear on show.
IMG_20170430_170210.jpg
It's quite an interesting setup I think. Overhead cam obviously, but the valves are actually actuated by rockers just like on an OHV setup.
IMG_20170430_170202.jpg
If nothing else, it makes for some interesting close ups...
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IMG_20170430_165944.jpg
The rockers sit on top of the posts nearest the camera, with the valves centrally along the length, with the camshaft actually operating on the far end. Adjusting the height of this post is how the valve clearances are set - though you really need a special wide feeler gauge to do it properly.

One thing which did cause a little concern was looking at this one timing chain guide, I don't know for certain, but I reckon that it should be straight relative to the chain not at an angle like this. I'll ask the experts over on the Lada forums about that methinks. Not going to worry about it though as the guide is still *there* rather than having ended up in the sump (it happens regularly), in which case when owners have ignored the awful racket and the chain has then been known to chew its way through the head rather than fail!
IMG_20170430_170037.jpg
Given the issue with that carb connection and the degree of dismantling I've already done, I'm seriously pondering just cracking on with Mission:EFi at this point. Really would like the car available next weekend...

I *think* I actually have all the bits I need now, save for a sundry assortment of fuel injection rated hose (30-ish PSI rather than insane like some modern systems) which Motorserv should have on the shelf.

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

That's a most interesting looking cam/rocker arrangement Zel!

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

I certainly can't remember seeing a similar setup on anything else...Really does to me look as though this engine design may well have started out as an OHV engine with pushrods and was then modified to an OHC setup at some point.

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

Zelandeth wrote:Really does to me look as though this engine design may well have started out as an OHV engine with pushrods and was then modified to an OHC setup at some point.


I'm not so sure as in a lot of OHC engines the valves are still operated by rockers... The TU, the 8v HDi, the 2.1TD for example from the PSA stable.. The 8V XU(D) series and the ES9 V6 are somewhat unusual in having the cams operate the valves directly via buckets. The 8V TU still has adjustable tappets even! That is possibly a hangover from the cam arrangements of the engine it superseded - the old Simca 'Suitcase' engine...

One good aspect of rocker operated valves in the HDi and 2.1TD at least is that if the cambelt breaks then the rockers are the weak link and they break before the cam and cam journals and this makes subsequent repair a lot easier. Unlike the 8V XU(D) engines...

Your Lada top-end looks like a very beefy and workmanlike job Zel :) Can't ever see that camchain ever letting go even if it gets loose enough to chew up the housing!

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

Have to confess to having relatively little experience with OHC engines...Only ones I've ever really had to poke around with have generally been in the Skoda (that's saying something I think...) and they're very traditional OHV layouts.

The biggest problem with the timing gear in this engine is that the wear pads on the timing chain guides are somewhat prone to separating from their backing (especially if it's allowed to get too loose - note - manual chain adjuster!) and disappearing into the sump. This obviously then leaves the chain really loose - though it makes a horrendous racket at that point it still won't break. What it will do eventually though is chew a hole in the side of the cylinder head! Even then will still keep going, just with a horrendous oil leak! Though to be honest it makes enough of a racket well before that that you'd be a bit of an idiot not to have investigated the cause of the din well before any damage was done.
Last edited by Zelandeth on 01 May 2017, 16:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

If it can stand that sort of abuse it is indeed beefy and very workmanlike Zel :D

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

I keep getting surprised by working on the Lada.

I'm very used to the fact that whenever I start doing a task on the Saab that by the time I'm done my estimate for how long it will take has usually multiplied by two or three times. Lada is generally tending to buck that trend (the only exception being when I discover prior bodgery, but that's hardly the fault of the car), and instead is doing the opposite.

Went out for a half hour this afternoon, main task to be to see whether I could shift the crankshaft pulley - as that was likely to be the single biggest showstopper on Mission:EFi.

Got my socket bought for the purpose out, dug out the 1/2" driver again, stuck the car in 5th gear, *checked whether the nut would be a left hand thread - it's not* and then applied (significant) force using my patented bit of exhaust pipe breaker bar. Car moved backwards about a foot and a half. Hauling on the handbrake far harder than I'd like resolved that issue, and instead cracked the nut off without too much drama.

One crankshaft pulley nut. 36mm for future reference in case anyone ever asks you (unlikely...).
IMG_20170501_173324.jpg
The ones for the Niva are a bit different because they still have the engagement points for the starter handle, but they are interchangeable. No use on the Riva though as the valance doesn't have the hole for it. The radiator was carried over from the 2101 Riva predecessor though and does have a hole through the bottom tank for that purpose.

Thankfully the pulley then just pulled off the crankshaft without any real protest other than being a snug fit. They apparently come in two varieties - either coming off without drama, or requiring pullers and much swearing.

Progress!
IMG_20170501_173449.jpg
Unsurprisingly after only 16K miles there's no real sign of any wear on the pulley from the oil seal. It's polished, but there's no ridge or anything there when given the fingernail test.
IMG_20170501_174101.jpg
Removing the timing chain cover was up next, using a bit of common sense in case the bolts/nuts were different sizes (they weren't) I laid them out next to the new cover as they came out.
IMG_20170501_175122.jpg
Removing the cover itself was a lot easier thanks to what appears to be a conscious decision on the part of the manufacturer to be helpful. Note in the above photos the little tabs in the casting at 3, 6 and 10 o'clock. The only reason that I can see for them being there is to allow you to get a lever behind the thing to crack the seal behind it.

Annoyingly the old gasket decided to disintegrate when I took the cover off, the majority of it remaining stuck to the block. So I'll need to attack that with the paint scraper. I had to accelerate at this point as it started to rain.

Nice to see the distinct lack of black gunge in here though, which I was a bit worried I'd be finding given that it's a low mileage car. All seems pretty clean really for an engine that's over 20 years old.
IMG_20170501_175401.jpg
IMG_20170501_181026.jpg
I've not fully pushed the new crankshaft pulley home yet because I just want to double-check where TDC is before I commit to that, as of course that's critical now because both the ignition and injection system will be timed by the notches in this pulley. I'll use the time honoured method of sticking a cable-tie down the plug hole for cylinder number 1 to check that.

Felt like a worthy 30 minutes of work though.

mickeymoon

Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by mickeymoon »

Zelandeth wrote: The biggest problem with the timing gear in this engine is that the wear pads on the timing chain guides are somewhat prone to separating from their backing (especially if it's allowed to get too loose - note - manual chain adjuster!) and disappearing into the sump. This obviously then leaves the chain really loose - though it makes a horrendous racket at that point it still won't break. What it will do eventually though is chew a hole in the side of the cylinder head! Even then will still keep going, just with a horrendous oil leak!


This is exactly what happened with the Lada 1200 my dad bought back in 1984 at a year old. Ended up with the head, timing chain and associated bits being replaced under warranty after some wrangling with the dealer. To be honest, it wasn't a whole lot quieter with it fixed!

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by myglaren »

Silly question #1.
Is it a Fiat designed engine copied by the Russians or one of their own creating?

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

myglaren wrote:Silly question #1.
Is it a Fiat designed engine copied by the Russians or one of their own creating?


From what I remember it's an in-house job. The Fiat engine been deemed "too fragile" essentially for the intended market, the Lada unit being rather more agricultural. I'm quite prepared to be proven wrong there, but that's my understanding Im sure there are definitely bits of the engine copied from Fiat, but overall it's Lada's own engine. Most of the other components in the engine bay are essentially Fiat stuff with a VAZ badge on, unsurprising given that they essentially bought the 124 design lock, stock and production-line.

Given the Lada 2101's origins as the Fiat 124, it's no surprise that the engine mounts are identical to Fiat's, and given that the gearbox was a direct copy it will bolt to a Fiat engine and a Lada engine will bolt to a Fiat box as the bell housings are the same.

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

mickeymoon wrote: This is exactly what happened with the Lada 1200 my dad bought back in 1984 at a year old. Ended up with the head, timing chain and associated bits being replaced under warranty after some wrangling with the dealer. To be honest, it wasn't a whole lot quieter with it fixed!


They do make quite a racket - that was one of the big reasons behind their creation of the belt-driven 1300 version of the engine, it was far, far quieter!

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by myglaren »

Thanks Zel - I was aware that they bought the redundant panel pressing gear from Fiat but not if they had the rights to produce the Fiat engines.