Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

There are two cheapish ones in the general vicinity I can see on Gumtree according to my phone, sadly one's the facelifted version and the other's a 2.5, so neither fit the requirements. Must be a 4.0, must be a pre-facelift car, and Limited SE spec would work in its favour, though to be honest I'm not too precious about that. The only accessory I'm probably going to insist on is A/C, which from memory was standard on everything aside from the Sport trim level.

Today I had a poke around on the Lada in preparation for the EFi conversion. My mission for today was:

[] Locate an ignition switched 12V feed.

This turned out to be trivially easy.

Two screws are all that hold the instrument panel in place, and with those out you can pull it forward a few inches, reach in and unscrew the speedo cable, and that gives you ample reach in all the wiring to lift it to the left of the steering wheel.

Looking into the space behind it, bingo.
IMG_20170227_164656.jpg
The metal cased relay just to the left of centre frame is the one which controls the entire ignition circuit (the black one is the indicator flasher unit), with the thick blue wire with the black tracer being the ignition circuit switched feed. Not the best location though...but a quick bit of detective work traced that back to where all the power comes into the car through (as you can see, nicely colour coded!) sockets on the back of the fusebox...
IMG_20170227_170232.jpg
The black plug is the one for the ignition circuit, and that's the other end of the blue wire mentioned above.

Just in case you're wondering - yes, all the engine bay side systems also plug into identical sockets on the underside of the fusebox on the other side of the bulkhead. Very sensible bit of design there I reckon!

The two "white" plugs to the right aren't used on this car as they are for various accessories, and even more usefully, I believe aren't connected to anything in the fusebox (which is what you're looking at the back of), so should I want to get 12V into the car at a later date for anything else, I'm all set.

One thing I am going to do before I actually get to work is have a look at how much space there is in the fuse box there - as if it's reasonably empty there, I may consider cutting those two accessory sockets out, and installing a modern high density multiway connector to route the EFi loom through to save me having to cut an inch and a half diameter hole in the firewall to route the loom through. Not worrying too much about it, but being able to do that would appeal to my sense of doing this in as professional a looking manner as I possibly can. Having said that, Lada's approach was to drill a hole in the bulkhead, so I'm not going to worry too much if I end up doing that!

[] Investigate why the dash lighting seems to cause the indicator flasher unit to have a fit - theory being a dodgy earth.

This has had me scratching my head a bit since I got the car. When you turn the ignition on, the indicator flasher unit ticks and the indicator tell tale on the dash blinks. It also does this (with the ignition on) when you turn on the headlights, and often then starts blinking (and ticking) as though you've got the indicators on but with a bulb blown somewhere. The actual operation of the indicators isn't affected.

This behaviour will do one of two things. If you're only going for a short trip, it'll stop after a few seconds. Or if you're going on a long drive, it will persist until about a minute before you get to your destination! It can sometimes be stopped though I've noticed by turning the dash illumination rheostat down - which immediately suggested to me that there's a duff earth related to that, and it's backfeeding into the flasher through a common connection somewhere (possibly even for the indicator warning light on the dash, thinking about it). I haven't actually sat down with the wiring diagrams in front of me to ponder that out yet.

However I don't think it's as simple as that - as having locally tied the ground terminals for both the flasher and the dash illumination to a solid ground has no effect on the behaviour. Hmmm...

Wiring diagram is here...Apologies for the size of the file, but I wanted to keep it readable. This is actually for a 2107 (the 1.6 engined "luxury" version!), but aside from a couple of gauges on the dash and a clock the wiring is identical*

*This also lacks the wiring for the emission control stuff on the later cars like mine - but that was a later add on and didn't change any of the existing vehicle wiring.
lada 2107 wiring diagram_scaled.jpg
IMG_20170227_173003.jpg
[] Investigate why someone had the horn relay connected with flying leads to an external earth meaning I can't close the fuse box lid.

This one has me quite baffled.

The common contact terminal (pin 30) on the relay instead of being connected into the fuse box, where it should go to 12V + via fuse number 7, instead is wandering off out of the fuse box by a bit of red wire, and terminates on a terminal on the inner wing. So the relay is switching ground, rather than power as it should normally be. I've checked, and the terminal in the fuse box does indeed have 12V on it. Plugging the relay in normally results in the relay clicking merrily when the horn is pressed, but the horn making no noise. The relay looks to be original given it's identical to all the others (complete with CCCP markings of course...), so I don't think it's the cause in itself.

The first thought I had was that someone had messed with the horn...but it doesn't look like it...
IMG_20170227_182233.jpg
Again though, this differs from the wiring diagram (I've checked three from different sources), in that the horn should be fed from a single wire (white with black stripes) with ground provided via the bracket - rather than separate red and black wires as are the case here - the wiring though looks stock, and disappears into the inner wing loom wrapping...so I'm not sure what's going on!

Honestly not sure what's going on there, and I need to investigate further. I'd rather get it sorted as it currently means that I can't close the lid on the fuse box properly.

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van ordinaire
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by van ordinaire »

The pop-up only gave me (big) postage stamp size images but the green one was definitely a pre-facelift & I thought the red one (for £600) was also - but it was that bit further away from the camera. Didn't really have time to look at either, as didn't want to be distracted from what I was actually doing at the time.

The a/c hasn't worked on any of mine (but with leccie windows it's no big deal) - I asked the vendor about the latest acquisition & he was non-commital. As usual it's never the most pressing thing that needs doing.

As for the Lada electrical gremlins, have you tried bypassing the panel lights dimmer? If that's the solution, that's it done; after all it doesn't really serve any useful purpose. As for the horn (reminds me of the curious conversion to press button engine start on my 1st Cherokee, even more curiously, still being installed when I arrived to collect it), I think I'd start by trying another relay - then reinstate original circuitry.

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CitroJim
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

Gosh Zel, an interesting post indeed :D You make all us Xantia owners very jealous over how easy it is to get behind the instrument pod!!!

It does look remarkably well designed and laid out too. Something else to be jealous about!

Hope those electrical quirks are soon resolved - now those are very Xantia in nature :lol:

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by van ordinaire »

The pop-up only gave me (big) postage stamp size images but the green one was definitely a pre-facelift & I thought the red one (for £600) was also - but it was that bit further away from the camera. Didn't really have time to look at either, as didn't want to be distracted from what I was actually doing at the time.

The a/c hasn't worked on any of mine (but with leccie windows it's no big deal) - I asked the vendor about the latest acquisition & he was non-commital. As usual it's never the most pressing thing that needs doing.

As for the Lada electrical gremlins, have you tried bypassing the panel lights dimmer? If that's the solution, that's it done; after all it doesn't really serve any useful purpose. As for the horn (reminds me of the curious conversion to press button engine start on my 1st Cherokee, even more curiously, still being installed when I arrived to collect it), I think I'd start by trying another relay - then reinstate original circuitry.

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demag
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by demag »

Yes I know autotrader used to use tracking cookies and probably still do. So you will get all sorts of crap on your pc. I only use my tablet to look with a postcode from round the corner. :-) Then I clear the cache after.

Sent from my Wileyfox Swift using Tapatalk

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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

I was quite surprised to find things like the colour coding on the fuse box, looking closer the same thing with colour coded connectors is used a lot behind the instrument panel.

Makes sense I guess given that Lada planned pretty much from the start to sell it anywhere they could, and colour codes are of course multilingual by definition. Also helpful for folks doing work in the depths of Siberia who might not have a manual to hand.

If it ever stops raining long enough I'll get the meter out and make sure that the voltages in various places make sense. The wiring diagrams above do seem to have a few differences to mine, so will want to double check I think.

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

Started cleaning stuff up today for the injection conversion.

Inlet manifold was first up.

Started out looking like this...
IMG_20170302_165007.jpg
Cleaned up not too bad really, given it only took ten minutes with a stiff brush and some carb cleaner. Even managed to not blast myself in the face with it this time, unlike last time I had it out!
IMG_20170302_171357.jpg
IMG_20170302_171403.jpg
Was surprised at who made the inlet manifold heater though...Bosch, sure, Lucas, sure, that sort of company...but nope!
IMG_20170302_171421.jpg
TI...pretty sure that's the first time I've seen their name on a bit of automotive kit.

Anyhow, that's basically ready to go on the car now.

You remember the madness I mentioned about the relay in the fuse box? This is the craziness I'm speaking about...
IMG_20170302_172030.jpg
I need to have a think about this, and have a poke around with a meter to figure out what the heck is going on!

For the curious though, you remember I showed you how nice and simply all the interior systems attached to the fuse box as the main firewall wiring pass-through? Exactly the same in the engine bay.
IMG_20170302_172107.jpg
The blue wire with the screw terminals on was a bodge put in place by the previous owner - it was originally attached to the idle metering solenoid on the carb, effectively locking it open. No wonder if kept flooding at idle when I first got it! The screw terminal was just a quick and dirty way to safely terminate the connection. My plan is to solder the wire back together and heat shrink it when I pull stuff apart in a couple of weeks.

Today's spot however when I was checking the oil and such. Noticed that several of the vacuum hoses that I'd changed all of four months back were perished.

First one being the one running from the charcoal canister to the inlet manifold...
IMG_20170302_172136.jpg
Other end of the same hose...
IMG_20170302_172155.jpg
Final one I snapped, at the vacuum accumulator on the actuator of the auto choke system...
IMG_20170302_172203.jpg
The worst one though was the one attaching to the advance/retard unit on the distributor - which had perished to the extent that it had actually fallen off! No wonder the thing had been idling like a bag of bolts for the last couple of weeks!

Snipped the ends off them for now, but will go grab some new hose from Motorserv tomorrow. If I didn't have a two hour drive up to Center Parcs coming up on Monday I'd just leave it as when I do the EFi conversion I'll be reducing the number of vacuum lines by about 80%...

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

That relay 'mod' is very much the same as I did on one of Gabriel's cooling fan relays due to inaccessible open-circuit wires under the socket...

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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

The question here Jim is *why* they've done it.

The relay is fine, as is the supply to the relay socket - there has been some fundamental change to the wiring of the horn circuit which is requiring a switched earth rather than supply for it to work...I just need to figure out what the heck someone has done to it...

If I can't figure it out reasonably quickly I'll just rewire the socket for now, only two screws to take the top panel of the fuse box off.

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

It makes no sense Zel :?

maybe the bypassed wire is intermittent or it was done to try and fix a symptom before the true root cause of the problem emerged perhaps and by then they just couldn’t be bothered to put it back right?

I love the 'hedgehog' in the inlet manifold... This I guess is to break up any large fuel droplets that escape from the injector?

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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

It's got me baffled to be honest Jim!

The wire wandering out of the fuse box goes to ground - that pin *should* be going to 12V + (and the pin in the fuse box correctly does). The horn side should be at ground, as the relay should switch the supply - however I've got 12V feeding back from the horn...So something odd is going on!

I reckon it's going to to be some daft - quite possibly factory caused - fault responsible for this, just need to actually track down what is going on.

The hedgehog in the inlet manifold is actually the top of the electric inlet manifold pre heater...I think there's just an element of over engineering here to be expected of a vehicle intended to do service in Siberia!

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

Zelandeth wrote: The hedgehog in the inlet manifold is actually the top of the electric inlet manifold pre heater...I think there's just an element of over engineering here to be expected of a vehicle intended to do service in Siberia!
Ahh! so that's what it is! A reverse heatsink... I can see its utility when the outside temperature is decidedly Siberian... I trust it's thermostatically controlled as when the temperature is high enough not to need it the additional heat may be counter-productive...

Old BMC A-series engines had a 'hot-spot' on the inlet manifold by virtue of a casting extension between it and the exhaust manifold... An old performance trick was to put a hacksaw through it and sever it so that the inlet was not artificially heated...

All this inlet heating brings back fond memories of my experiences with winter carb icing on a Volvo 340 I had due to me being too lazy to replace the broken bit of the air intake trunking that pulled inlet air over tre exhaust manifold in the cold...

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

Yep, it's got its own output from the ECU and a relay. The manifold has water passages in it so the electrical heating is only used for the first few minutes when the engine is started from cold.

It's a pretty beefy heater, running from its own 50A maxi fuse...

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by CitroJim »

My Activa has a little throttle body heater on it Zel and so does the V6 engines... It's tiny in comparison though - about the size of a Polo mint...

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Pug 107, Saab 900, Lada Riva, Skoda Estelle & Sinclair C5

Post by Zelandeth »

Yeah, this one is a bit bigger! Will have to stick the clamp meter on it sometime and see what the power draw actually is out of curiosity.

In case you wondered, it's run from the relay in the black socket on the EFi loom.

Slight change of plan. Originally you might see that on the throttle body to inlet manifold joint I'd left the bits of gasket intact. That was because the same thing was going back on there and because said gasket is NLA.

Until one turned up hanging on a hook in Tom's garage.

Some more silly parts prices...

Set of wing indicator repeaters (mine are faded), £5 the pair including bulbs. Two part inlet manifold to head gasket set. £5. Clutch slave cylinder flexible hose and copper crush washer, £5. Clutch slave cylinder, £12. Mine weeps very slightly, so figured I'd get a spare in stock just in case it gets worse - though I know they can continue like that for years sometimes.

Don't suppose you know anywhere good for supplying silicone hoses do you?

The original Lada vacuum lines would have been in white silicone (Matt finish), and I'd like to swap them back out for something at least the right colour...