identify this C5 X7 wheel please

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Re: identify this C5 X7 wheel please

Post by qprdude »

And the pot/kettle reference?
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Re: identify this C5 X7 wheel please

Post by DickieG »

Stickyfinger wrote:Yes,.......... I am saying that the ride given, in both comfort and grip, is compromised by the fitting of 19inch wheels and tires of the same spec.
Your choice or not, they do that only for the sake of looks and the modern style. In the same vane, I would not fit low profile tires to a Stag nor would I fit V-Wide tires to a Landrover (with a few off road exceptions)
Can you please explain how grip is compromised by these 19" wheels? :?

As for a loss of ride comfort do you really believe that an extra 1/2" in a tyre sidewall transforms the ride? The extra 1/2" taller sidewall will certainly make the steering less direct, likewise with the general handling, the only deterioration in the ride is that small corrugations are slightly more noticeable.

I'm not being obtuse here I'm interested to find out what you base your theory on.

I quite agree with you re the Stag and low profile tyres as it just wouldn't look right as they are old cars from an era where pretty much all tyres were 80 profile. I've had countless compliments from various people about how well these 19" wheels suit the C5, each to their own and all that when it comes to appearance but the feedback I've had is very positive indeed.
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Re: identify this C5 X7 wheel please

Post by SaabC5 »

Not sure about the grip side of things, the 19's wear 245 width tyres so lots of rubber on the road. Ride quality will definitely suffer though, there's nothing like an elastic band for a tyre to make a crashy ride experience.
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Re: identify this C5 X7 wheel please

Post by Stickyfinger »

Sure

A low profile tire as hard as the ones on the 19 inch wheels are fine on smooth dry roads, in fact they were designed for race tracks initially.

......On normal A and B roads used by heavy loads, the ride suffers badly with a tenancy to tram-line more than a flexible tire as low profile types "ride ridges".
......On these roads you will often have a ridged or uneven surface (heavy trucks/corners) which impedes grip due to tramping. This is often imperceptible as it is damped by the power steering.
......Low profile tires of wide section are very susceptible to the cars weight and can un-stick very easily on the rear when braking hard in a Tourer for example. More rubber is not always the correct approach on roads, it is a complicated calculation between weight/grip/forces/electronics.
......Modern cars like the C5 do not have the suspension that benefits from removing (or accepting the discomfort when on a race car) the extra micro shock absorbing ability of a more flexible tread surface and the extra grip offered by the increased surface following ability of a more flexible tread contact surface. (Its not all about wall flex).
.....Ability of the tire to absorb the sudden shocks of road defects without damage a and the subsequent danger to the car itself of other road users.
.....Flexible walls add to the ability of the car to maintain suspension stability when tires take sudden shocks from road defects at speed and thus maintain grip. (Less recoil)
.....Flexible walls help the cars suspension bearings and bushes absorb shock giving the units a increased life. (just has too)
.....They cost SHED LOADS more for the same spec and have a shorter life.
.....LP tires are more susceptible to tire wall damage and pinching

Low Profile tires are essentially an intermediate track tire made for the road by using a harder tread compound to increase tire life.

A good road tire is one designed to be used in the widest possible conditions for comfort and road safety, LP tires are not as good as road tire for a road car.

Just how I feel about boy racer big wheels :)

PS, I would not put LP tires/wheels on a Stag because it would not handle, it would fall off the road very quickly.
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Re: identify this C5 X7 wheel please

Post by DickieG »

Good Lord where on earth did you get that from?

Does a C5 with these wheels have a crashy ride? No, the bodyshell on a new car such as a X7 C5 is far more rigid than an older car such as a Xantia so the suspension takes the shock of a bump rather than the bump resonating through the body.

Does it tramline along road ridges? No.

Does a tourer such as mine rapidly lose grip/un-stick easily when braking with a heavy load when fitted with 19" wheels? No, oh for heavens sake, who made that one up?

Does the C5 handling/grip suffer from having these tyres fitted? Err no :twisted:

Since when did higher profile tyres extend the life of wheel bearings? Maybe if low profile tyres are combined with lowered stiff suspension the bearing could suffer additional stress, but on a Hydropneumatic C5, I can't see it.

If you think that hard side walls affect grip so significantly then you've not had the experience that I have driving BMW's fitted with run flats through bends at eye watering speeds, the only thing that you notice is that the tyre has a slight bunny hop but maintains grip like you know what to a blanket. To the novice it might cause a slight concern to start with but trust me here as I speak with vast personal experience, the tyre maintains grip. When you then add into the mix that run flats weigh significantly more than a standard tyre so the suspension has significantly higher unsprung weight to handle you can understand why it's more likely to bunny hop.

As for additional cost, the difference between a 17" and 19" Michelin tyre for a C5 is according to Black Circles £40, can you buy a shed for £40?

Strange thing about this thread is those who voice opinions criticising these 19" wheels don't own a C5 with them fitted,,,,,
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Re: identify this C5 X7 wheel please

Post by vborovic »

Not an expert in the tire field, but here's a comment from popularmechanics.com:

The short sidewalls of low-profile tires enhance the tires' response when the driver first turns the steering wheel. That gives the driver the (often false) feeling the tire has tons of grip. But after that initial movement, it's the tread compound—the stickiness of the rubber—that determines how well the tire grips the road. Also, the combination of a large-diameter wheel and low-profile tire is usually heavier than the original equipment. This means the suspension may not be able to keep the tire in touch with the pavement.
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Re: identify this C5 X7 wheel please

Post by Stickyfinger »

DickieG wrote:Good Lord where on earth did you get that from?

Does a C5 with these wheels have a crashy ride? No, the bodyshell on a new car such as a X7 C5 is far more rigid than an older car such as a Xantia so the suspension takes the shock of a bump rather than the bump resonating through the body.
And part of the suspension is the tire which is a significant part of the system, the 19inch tire changes that in various ways which I maintain are detrimental to a Citroen C5

Does it tramline along road ridges? No.
Drove one, that one did and I noticed it, maybe the tires.

Does a tourer such as mine rapidly lose grip/un-stick easily when braking with a heavy load when fitted with 19" wheels? No, oh for heavens sake, who made that one up?
When compared to a standard tire, I would bet on it being less grippy when you really need it. More so in the wet without a load.
Grip is a hard thing to calculate across the wide range of needs presented by every day roads. Are you really saying wide hard tires on a heavy front wheel drive estate car will give you better rear grip on a wet tarmac road of dubious quality ?


Does the C5 handling/grip suffer from having these tyres fitted? Err no :twisted:
You don't believe AutoCar then ?

Code: Select all

The Hydractive 3+ suspension still defines the Citroën’s character and ensures a relaxing drive, although the 19-inch alloys fitted as an option to our test car noticeably compromised the otherwise supple, loping ride.
As for grip |I make comment in other lines.

Since when did higher profile tyres extend the life of wheel bearings? Maybe if low profile tyres are combined with lowered stiff suspension the bearing could suffer additional stress, but on a Hydropneumatic C5, I can't see it.
With the LP tire wheel, the extra weight and the extra shock forces will directly effect the life of the bearing. It works harder and get more of a beating. You have a harder tire

If you think that hard side walls affect grip so significantly then you've not had the experience that I have driving BMW's fitted with run flats through bends at eye watering speeds, the only thing that you notice is that the tyre has a slight bunny hop but maintains grip like you know what to a blanket. To the novice it might cause a slight concern to start with but trust me here as I speak with vast personal experience, the tyre maintains grip. When you then add into the mix that run flats weigh significantly more than a standard tyre so the suspension has significantly higher unsprung weight to handle you can understand why it's more likely to bunny hop.

Your in a Citroen, it is a very different design and set up. So WHY did you purchase a Citroen exactly was it for its BMW like handling ?...... because the C5 is already a compromise to the "harsh track" ride in BMW's and Audi's vrs earlier similar sized Citroen cars, all 19inch wheels do for the C5 is compromise the system more and move it further away from the unique compromise it was..

As for additional cost, the difference between a 17" and 19" Michelin tyre for a C5 is according to Black Circles £40, can you buy a shed for £40?
£160/4....hey, Madrid for two, Tapas and a Hotel, but I agree it is not a significant (to me) factor

Strange thing about this thread is those who voice opinions criticising these 19" wheels don't own a C5 with them fitted,,,,,
wrong sorry to an extent, test drove 2, one for a weekend from Avalon in Glastonbury....Also I have been driving an Audi A4 Avant estate(14) quite a few times on the same journey, interesting to compare the two on exactly the same roads over 3 months . (Geeze the Audi crashes about ! maybe that's why I lost a filling !)
As for experience, yeh I have a bit here and there on all sorts of tires, what it has taught me however is I am not driving my car on a race track so I do not need to compromise my comfort.

As for needing them, I am of the opinion you would be breaking the law big time or driving so wildly that you would be an extreme danger to those around you if you need better grip than the standard tire gives you on public roads.
If you need to feel like your in a race car feel free, it does not offend me in the least many make that choice for a road car but I cannot for the life of me understand why get a Citroen C5 Estate if that is the result you wish, but as said, your choice and only my opinion
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Re: identify this C5 X7 wheel please

Post by Xantippa »

Low profile tires don´t fit with hydropneumatic suspension because the biggest problem with this suspension is it´s inability to cope with small bumps of the road. If tyre doesn´t flex, then those bumps come through. Also bigger unsprung mass that comes with bigger wheels adds to this. I can feel those little bumps even with 17" wheels, so I know what I´m talking about. Another weak point of low profile tires is that they´re very sensitive for tire wear if your car´s wheels arent just right aligned. And I´ve heard that wider and lp tires also tend to wear much quicker anyway. So if the price difference per set isn´t that huge anymore, you have to buy new tires more often and that will cost much.

And btw, the most important reason racing cars have got so big wheels and lp-tires is that there´s more room for brakes.

And I´ve also considered buying 18" for summer tires if I get set of original alloys very cheap.
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Re: identify this C5 X7 wheel please

Post by vborovic »

For those who are just relaxing reading this thread, here's a similar discussion, where some (IMO) good explanations in relation tire size/grip are mentioned: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=40591" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... not going into specific possible road situations, but in ideal driving conditions (warm, dry surface), I'd think there is very little difference between 16 & 19 inch wheels on this type of car, what should matter most is the actual tire (its capability of gripping when needed) ... I don't think any of the two would show huge improvement in cornering, slaloms, what-not, which are not the daily driving experience for an average C5 driver ... the ride quality (suspension, its softness) could be related to the tire sizes, but I'll remind on 2 personal examples where I drove, in my C5 (steel-sprung), people who're owners of the C5 III (hydractive), they did 100k + miles in them, and they didn't notice my car was steel-sprung during the ride ... subjectivity? Probably ... so, to each his own ...
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Re: identify this C5 X7 wheel please

Post by Deano24v »

my tourer came on the 19's. I couldnt live with the ride. yes it has more grip but it wasnt worth the compromise. I sold them and replaced them with a nice set of OE 17's and had money left over for a nice new set of OE michelins too (for waht its worth the 19's were on Michelins too). the ride is markedly improved, completly different driving car-not necessarily any better or any worse but very different. OK outright grip has gone down but lets be honest its not a car to attack corners in anyway. It might not look as nice but i can live with that.

just to add the primary reason for change was that although i do 700 miles a week , 150 of those are in central london and the surrounding towns where the roads are less than perfect. on the 19's it wasnt fun having to avoid every hole/broken bit of road etc. ive had too many buckled/cracked alloys in the past on BMW's to want to repeat the experience. Also the roads in Leeds arent great either so it made sense for me to make the swap. Its a 2 tonne estate car that just wants to lope along really and not be hustled so why fit an elephant with running shoes when it was perfectly happy in its loafers.
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Re: identify this C5 X7 wheel please

Post by SaabC5 »

Good god, i started all this just cos i liked the Ariane 19" wheel on a C5 Exclusive i was considering buying. :rofl2:
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Re: identify this C5 X7 wheel please

Post by Stickyfinger »

off topic now ?

back on track (pun) to a correct French subject

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Re: identify this C5 X7 wheel please

Post by DickieG »

superloopy wrote:Geez ... did I start all of that :)

Sorry Richard .... love the car, just that those wheels wouldnt be my choice.

One day i 'may' and when/if I do i'll post up a picture of my wheels and you can make comment .... fair :)
No need to apologise Mike, each to their own and all that as everyone is entitled to their opinion, I have no problem with that whatsoever.

I do find it all rather amusing reading comments made telling me how compromised my car is due to its wheels and tyres. Crikey I was in a state of panic this morning going to work constantly worrying that my car was going to go out of control at the mere whiff of an input to the controls, somehow and it must have been purely down to good fortune that I'm still alive to tell the tale [-o<

To suggest that I must have been driving dangerously and illegally in order to have the experience I have when it comes to driving at high speed on public roads, well that's a rather foolish assumption to make,,,

I find it just as amusing when people quote from something they've read on the internet or in a car rag assumes that the writer actually knows what they are talking about and have accredited qualifications to prove their "skills" behind the wheel as unless you have the skills to properly set a car up for a bend (very few people can) your opinion of it's handling is worthless.
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Re: identify this C5 X7 wheel please

Post by Stickyfinger »

DickieG wrote:
superloopy wrote:Geez ... did I start all of that :)

Sorry Richard .... love the car, just that those wheels wouldnt be my choice.

One day i 'may' and when/if I do i'll post up a picture of my wheels and you can make comment .... fair :)
No need to apologise Mike, each to their own and all that as everyone is entitled to their opinion, I have no problem with that whatsoever.

I do find it all rather amusing reading comments made telling me how compromised my car is due to its wheels and tyres. Crikey I was in a state of panic this morning going to work constantly worrying that my car was going to go out of control at the mere whiff of an input to the controls, somehow and it must have been purely down to good fortune that I'm still alive to tell the tale [-o<
Silly and ridiculous comment

To suggest that I must have been driving dangerously and illegally in order to have the experience I have when it comes to driving at high speed on public roads, well that's a rather foolish assumption to make,,,
Silly and ridiculous comment, no one did

I find it just as amusing when people quote from something they've read on the internet or in a car rag assumes that the writer actually knows what they are talking about and have accredited qualifications to prove their "skills" behind the wheel as unless you have the skills to properly set a car up for a bend (very few people can) your opinion of it's handling is worthless.

Let me ask you , will current RAC (MSA)Track (NatB) and Rally (StageB) licenses "qualify me" ? , just wondering.

just close your mind and enjoy the potholes/bumps and the extra grip you get in V-Wet/Snow
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Re: identify this C5 X7 wheel please

Post by DickieG »

Stickyfinger wrote:Let me ask you , will current RAC (MSA)Track (NatB) and Rally (StageB) licenses "qualify me" ? , just wondering.
Nope, What makes you think that having a licence play around for the odd weekend will impress me or suggest a high level of skill? Good lord you can take those tests without any training or if you're not confident take a half days worth of training which tells me all you need to know about those qualifications. You'll have to try considerably harder if you're playing top trumps with me :lol:
sticky finger wrote:just close your mind and enjoy the potholes/bumps and the extra grip you get in V-Wet/Snow
Well it's actually rather good with my second set of 19" wheels and winter tyres it's been wearing since October :wink:

I'm now finished with this thread.
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