FU from Charlie !

[Northern_Mike]

If there is an attack on a public café in my country, I will patronise a public café and encourage others to do so. If there is an assault on a transport hub, I will catch a bus or train at the next opportunity. If someone tries to create carnage in a public space, I will react by showing my lack of fear; statistically I am safer there than crossing a busy road. This is the whole thrust of what Parisians have been doing the last couple of days.

Well said Addo.

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[daviemck2006]

And I heard on the radio news the french police showed no mercy on the gunmen, bang bang they are dead, and the supermarket one also. It's sad that another 4 innocent people died also.

[Northern_Mike]

And I heard on the radio news the french police showed no mercy on the gunmen

And nor should they. Apparently our police don't have the firepower to deal with this, a couple of nutters with guns....

These were not highly trained people. They were nutters with guns. You and I could walk into the offices of a newspaper and shoot 12 people if we had guns. It wouldn't take long, and it wouldn't take any skill. Obviously, we'd not use your red van to escape in (though, I note the gunmen used a Citroen as a getaway car - a somewhat risky move) . Highly trained military men wouldn't come storming out of a warehouse into a hail of gunfire..

Nutters with guns.

We need to look at the CAUSE ..

[addo]

I would love it if the police and military could use darts that contained MDMA.

[Northern_Mike]

I would like it if they'd be intelligent enough to act on evidence they already have. The two gunmen in the Charlie Hebdo shootings were very well known to police, one had been inside, as had their nutcase Imam who was preaching violence 10 years ago.

Security fail. As was 9/11, and the London bombings. All could have probably been averted if the forces acted on information they had.

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[DickieG]

What I do get is how educated people in the modern world follow any religion, I recall being in infant school and being told the story of seas parting and thousands being fed from a few loaves of bread, oh come on get real I rest my case

[Northern_Mike]

What I do get is how educated people in the modern world follow any religion, I recall being in infant school and being told the story of seas parting and thousands being fed from a few loaves of bread, oh come on get real I rest my case

Well, yes, there is that. The issue with these nutters is that many of them aren't particularly well educated, and get indoctrinated into their religion without any choice, and get it drummed into them.

These two nuts had been going to a mosque where they'd had it drilled into them while their Imam showed them pictures of American soldiers abusing Afghan, Muslim prisoners in Abu Graib....

Like I said, look at the cause... not just the effect.

[daviemck2006]

Religion is responsible for 1/2 the wars/terrorism in the world, and politics the other 1/2. I don't really do politics, and although I go to a small community church every week I can, I'm not particularly religious, I go for the company of the decent folk there, and the cheap lunch afterwards!

[Northern_Mike]

Nutters are, rather than religion itself. It's just that the extremes of any belief system, or political system, attracts nutters. We go on about these Islamic nutters but we forget that Anders Breivik, who's crime was even more vile than this one in Paris, was a non-religious white man from Norway, and Timothy Mcveigh was a non-religious white American ex-soldier. Apart from 9/11 , these two alone killed more than any Islamic terrorist attack has ever done..




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[addo]

I feel that there are stronger leanings towards fundamentalism within many doctrines, than (say) fifteen years ago. Davie, do they feed you without grumbling if you turn up too late for the service?

Mike, don't forget the little man was an atheist as well.

[Northern_Mike]

He was indeed an atheist. He was originally brought up a Catholic I believe. There are definitely leanings towards nutty fundamentalism in faiths but it *appears* only among the ill-educated. My wife's cousin is a doctor, married to a Muslim guy she met at uni, who's also a doctor. She's a Catholic, he's an Indian Muslim. He's a perfectly normal chap. I usually end up talking to him at parties because I don't drink either...

I worked for a Lebanese/Palestinan company out in Greece for a few years. My dad worked for them for 25 years. Lots of Lebanese Muslims and Christians worked there together perfectly well. The company had been based in Lebanon until they got fed up with the offices getting damaged. I met many folk from that area who'd seen and heard awful things, which would give them good reason to hate the perpetrators but they didn't. They had more education and sense. This was a company where we got Friday off and worked Saturday, so there was a large Muslim contingent. I never had an issue with any of them.

Do school shootings count as terrorism? There's been 350 killed in them since 1985..

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[daviemck2006]

Davie, do they feed you without grumbling if you turn up too late for the service?

They sure do. Saves me cooking on Sundays

[addo]

Excellent! I'll pay that.

[DickieG]

I would like it if they'd be intelligent enough to act on evidence they already have. The two gunmen in the Charlie Hebdo shootings were very well known to police, one had been inside, as had their nutcase Imam who was preaching violence 10 years ago.

Security fail. As was 9/11, and the London bombings. All could have probably been averted if the forces acted on information they had.

If only it was that simple, the bare facts are that if security forces acted on all the information they have then hundreds of looneys would need to be interned as far too often they know only too well what the looneys are up to but gathering sufficient evidence to secure a conviction within current legislation is almost impossible. So ask yourself are you happy to have internment which would no doubt bring out all manner of criticism from civil liberty groups, it's a case of you get the security you ask for,,,,,

Just look at Iraq, Saddam was clearly a brutal dictator but you may bring out the question that maybe that is the only way of controlling the various factions within the country, I'm certainly not saying I agree with him but I do wonder that had he been left in power whether less blood would have been shed.

What rather bothers me in our present situation in the UK is that control orders were removed by our delightful Teresa despite pleading from anti terror Police that they are essential to monitor these loons and that the Lib Dems vetoed legislation to allow said security forces to monitor the internet. What on earth are people bothered about unless you have something to hide? Dig as deep as anyone wishes into my background and it wouldn't bother me one bit as I have nothing to hide or be ashamed of.

Personally I'd far sooner give security services the tools they require to do their job properly rather than them having to mince around and later be blamed for a "security failure", you can't have it both ways.

[Hell Razor5543]

Leonard H. Courtney said "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance". He got that right. Unless we want to live in a police state (ask former East German citizens what they thought about the Stasi!) we have to accept that it is impossible to stop all terrorists attacks. It has been said more than once that the security forces have to be lucky all the time, while terrorists only need to be lucky once. The worst case for any security agency to deal with is a true 'lone wolf' attacker. The security agencies need information to act upon, and the larger the group the greater the potential for leaks. The lone wolf is unlikely to slip up.