Elmas Xantia V6 and Musical Stuff

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

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elma
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Re: Elmas Xantia V6

Post by elma »

A little more progress was made yesterday with the hydraulic leak. I took the air box and its bracket off so I could see better. It turns out Mikes suspicions are correct and I have a second leak on the accumulator block. Both leaks had enough of a puddle around them to mask the sources. I decided to give them both a good clean and look again today so I have a good chance of fiddling with the right bit. I also noticed the pump is leaking and so so is the sump. The N/S strut return pipe was damp too so I nipped up the connector. I also noticed that the oil filter looks quite aged so an oil change and resealing tthe sump is pencilled in for next weekend along with the coolant bottle and coolant.

That probably isn't much progress for a whole day but the Scenic had a little overhaul as well. It was treated to an oil change, new cabin filter and a new air filter. It had a wash, the drivers window switch was repaired and then it went for its mot, which it passed. One advisory on the n/s track rod end and they tried to sell me 2 tyres as the fronts have feathered the outside edges. The Scenic just needs spark plugs, the rocker cover sealing (got new inlet manifold gasket but waiting for blue hylomar at to arrive) and front brake pads. I need to put the speaker grill and a few screws back in the drivers door card. Then finally that track rod end and tracking will see it in top order for the winter.

Today I plan to tackle the 2 central Lhm leaks on the Xantia and clean up the pump to find the other one. I need to check if the headlights have the rear covers and strip down the o/s one which is filling with condensation. I've found a spare central locking receiver to try as the remote locking isn't working. I shall buy oil and a filter ready for next weekend and order some loctite to seal the sump. I need to look up the sump washer size, no idea what condition it will be in. I shall also be ordering a coolant bottle, night breaker bulbs and coolant. I didn't get round to measuring the bottle yesterday so am still unsure which. I have decided to go with the cheapest alloy option that fits. I will get the welding guy at work to tig an alteration to fit the original level sensor one day, after I have added the missing wire to the sensor.

If there is any time left I will be jacking it up to inspect the front suspension and brakes. The suspension definitely isn't right on the n/s. Feels like either the p bush, the track rod end or both. The tracking seems way out as well but not worth doing until the suspension components are healthy. Brake wise they need bleeding badly and they rub. Can't see much through the exclusive wheels so a lot to be revealed. Is there a preferred brand of spark plugs for these engines, I'd like to do the plugs and fuel filter as soon as I can.
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CitroJim
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Re: Elmas Xantia V6

Post by CitroJim »

Pump weep will be the normal O ring James... I have the same on macabrely I must attend to today...

Leaky pressure regulators happen a lot on the V6 and the sump too is a common issue...

Heat is often seen to be the cause of the regulator leaking and most V6s seem to at some time or another...

Sump resealing is easy enough if not a little messy and tedious... Use high quality automotive RTV gasket silicone... Something like Loctite 5910...

Main thing is, you don't have leaky camboxes - yet! They're fun :twisted:

Plenty to keep you occupied for a while yet ;)

When you want to do the cambelt do you want to come down here for a weekend and do it? I have the special tools and experience...
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xantia_v6
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Re: Elmas Xantia V6

Post by xantia_v6 »

Remember that the header tank needs a fitting for the little hose from the degassing tank.
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xantia_v6
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Re: Elmas Xantia V6

Post by xantia_v6 »

And I have always been happy with NGK plugs (original fitment), but I know that others prefer Bosch
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Mandrake
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Re: Elmas Xantia V6

Post by Mandrake »

NGK is not OEM.

OEM fitment on the V6 is Bosch FR8KDC or Eyquem RFC58LSPD.

Both my V6's arrived with NGK plugs fitted but of the wrong heat range. This is because the equivalent lookup sites/tables give the wrong heat range for the ES9J4 for NGK so watch out for that as the engine doesn't like plugs that are too cold for frequent short trips and will carbon them up.

Very early Citroen docs list FR7KDC (a colder plug) while all later docs list FR8KDC so my guess is they decided their initial selection was too cold for short running and bumped the heat range up one range.

On my first V6 I had serious carbon build up issues on the insulators of the colder NGK plugs after short running that led to misfiring but no problem at all with the Bosch FR8KDC.

On my Second V6 I replaced the NGK plugs that came in it with FR8KDC as a matter of course and it has been running beautifully over 2 years now especially now that I've replaced a faulty TPS. It goes like a rocket at the moment.
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CitroJim
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Re: Elmas Xantia V6

Post by CitroJim »

Personally I've never been impressed with NGK sparkplugs or glowplugs... I share your experiences with them in a V6 Simon.

Their glowplugs just did not suit a 2.1TD at alll...

Can't beat OEM as a general rule....
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Mandrake
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Re: Elmas Xantia V6

Post by Mandrake »

Personally I would stick with Bosch FR8KDC as it is factory OEM and known good.

The NGK's that came in both my V6's were not even dual electrode types. My opinion is this engine is not happy with old fashioned single electrode spark plugs and requires the symmetrical geometry of the dual electrode type. Not to mention a single electrode design won't last as long.

I think the copper core is also important to help prevent a hot spot on the electrode tip to prevent preignition due to the high compression ratio. Cheaper core materials used in some spark plugs aren't as suitable.

(Copper core gives a wider effective heat range for the plug since it conducts heat away from the tip. This lets you run a hotter insulator on the plug to prevent carbon buildup but without the electrode tip overheating and causing preignition hence a wider overall working temperature range)
elma
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Re: Elmas Xantia V6

Post by elma »

CitroJim wrote:
Main thing is, you don't have leaky camboxes - yet! They're fun :twisted:
This wouldn't be a leaky cam box would it? I'm hoping for rocker gasket.
ImageImage

Very little progress are on leaks today, the accumulator looks like a pipe that I can't reach the jubilee on an need to try from underneath. The hydractive block one is hard to tell but looking like the solenoid itself and scared me so I left it alone.

I hadn't noticed before but my coolant bottle has some bolts in to try to repair it.
Image
I've basically chosen this as my coolant tank. It's £20 more than Citroen but will last and should fit. It will need tig welding to add the low level sensor. I'm going to flush and then change the coolant tomorrow to see that the bottle actually does leak. I'd hate to find out that the leak was elsewhere having paid that much for a bottle.

I did manage to seal the O/S headlamp today, the condensation inside has been annoying me since I got the car. I also checked the nsf wheel, suspension and brakes. Happy with everything except brakes, the inside pad is wearing weird and theres a lip on the inner edge of the disc. New pads and fitting kit are ordered and the discs are decent enough to true in a lathe.

Feeling a bit stressed with the hydraulic leaks today, I really wanted them sorted but need to work out how to best get at them and in the case of the pump I need some idea where the leak is. I can see the fluid underneath thats come out but from under the bonnet it looks good.
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CitroJim
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Re: Elmas Xantia V6

Post by CitroJim »

Yes, that's the beginning of cambox weeps James but not yet serious. It's when oil drips onto the exhaust manifolds it becomes a problem...

Hydraulic pump leak will be from the O ring on the 19mm hex below the delivery pipe, the one I changed in Gabriel yesterday. It can be done in-situ. If on the other hexagon then the pump needs removing. Not as hard as it looks.

It's a good idea to whip out the alternator if it's wet with LHM and give it a good clean....

Again, easier than it looks...
elma
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Re: Elmas Xantia V6

Post by elma »

It seems a shame that I have the cam box leak but thankfully I'm ordering the loctite sealer for the sump so it will just take extra time. I'm trying hard to have it ready to mot on the 20th so the cam box will go on the "less important" list for after the mot.

Today I shall be flushing and replacing the coolant. I hope this will sort the slight issue with coolant temperature which rises ten degrees above the middle of the gauge a little easily. If not a new thermostat will also be fitted. I have a fuel filter to fit and I will also revisit the hydraulic leak on the accumulator block which I believe I can access from underneath. Finally I will be washing the car as its looking terrible after the drive back from Norwich.

Cleaning the alternator seems wise, it shall be done next weekend along with replacing the leaky seal. I ordered some parts last night for the mot. I should be receiving over the next few days a rear wiper, front brake pads, fitting kit, 10 dash bulbs, an oil filter and a pair of night-breakers. Ill be ordering the Lhm pump seal tomorrow as well.
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CitroJim
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Re: Elmas Xantia V6

Post by CitroJim »

Cambox seals are only a problem when the oil drips on the exhaust manifolds and starts smoking James ;) It won't affect the MOT...

Best to do them when you do the cambelt as the cams need to come out as both top and bottom sides of the cam bearing ladders need to be resealed with the same goo as you'll use on the sump...
elma
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Re: Elmas Xantia V6

Post by elma »

I didn't realise that, good news really as I've enough to get on with. I just collected the coolant, oil filter and air filter. Unwinding in the beach with dog now then the car will get some attention.
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Stickyfinger
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Re: Elmas Xantia V6

Post by Stickyfinger »

I had FLAMES licking up from my cam-box leak......get it FIXED mate :)
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Mandrake
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Re: Elmas Xantia V6

Post by Mandrake »

elma wrote: Today I shall be flushing and replacing the coolant. I hope this will sort the slight issue with coolant temperature which rises ten degrees above the middle of the gauge a little easily. If not a new thermostat will also be fitted.
What do you consider "a little easily" ?

Keep in mind that on a S1 Xantia the middle line on the coolant gauge is only 80 degrees whereas on a S2 the middle line is 90 degrees, so if you are used to a Series 2 it might look visually too high to you.

As the thermostat temperature is around 87 degrees and the low fan speed doesn't come on until 93 degrees (high fan at 97 degrees) then a reading of 90 degrees (one line above half way) is perfectly normal if you're pushing it along - if I give mine a bit of welly on the motorway then come off and slow down it will rise to about 90.

Another thing to be aware of is that on the V6 there are three temperature sensors - a green one for the engine ECU which is mounted in front of the thermostat assembly, this measures the "true" coolant temperature. There is another brown one on the side near the back that measures the temperature to control the fans and warning light, and a third blue one around the back of the block that measures the temperature for the gauge.

This gauge sensor is directly exposed to the return flow from the radiator so its really measuring the return flow not the main coolant temperature so its reading will fluctuate a lot depending on the flow through the thermostat, air flow through the radiator etc..

Generally it will read 10 degrees or more below actual coolant temperature unless you're pushing it along and air flow through the radiator is low in which case it will increase to "actual" temperature eg about 90.

If you measure the temperature with a Lexia, which shows the green sensor near the front of the thermostat housing you'll probably find that the temperature is staying between 87 and 93 degrees all the time.

Personally I wouldn't worry about what you're seeing - sounds like normal V6 gauge behaviour to me.
elma
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Re: Elmas Xantia V6

Post by elma »

Having read what you said it probably is normal. It goes between 80 and 90 but not above. I'll hold on any thermostats. I'm used to s1 TDs which seem to sit in the middle.