Water preheater- need hose size

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c.morewood
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Re: Water preheater- need hose size

Post by c.morewood »

Update: just got the price.. even better 80.50 Euros including delivery which by my reckoning is about £66?
As I understand it the Citroen preheater is passive .. it doesn't pump the hot water around the system.. which is why I went for one with a small pump attached.
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Re: Water preheater- need hose size

Post by Stickyfinger »

A "passive" water heater is not really "passive". Heated water is its own pump.

If the Out flow is higher than the return, you will get a Thermo-Siphon.
This action of heat rising is easily powerful enough to cause flow throughout the system.....it is the system used to heat large houses before pumps were made both electric and reliable for home/industrial use for a 100 years or so.

I use this system to heat my workshops .......Old log burner/back boiler.....pallet wood and the old thermo-siphon flowing around some old cast iron rads, toasty :)
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Re: Water preheater- need hose size

Post by CitroJim »

The Eberspacher fitted to some Exclusive HDi models must be pumped. Therefore it can only be fired up when the engine is running and coolant is circulating by dint of the water pump...

The Eberspacher cannot be used in thermo-syphon mode as it will overheat and cut out..

Kenny, forgot to say, an Eberspacher that only works for a short while is suffering from stiff blower motor bearings. It's a common fault. If the fan cannot spin fast enough the sensors detect this and the heater cuts out.

New fan motors are blisteringly expensive - about twice what your unit will cost Chris - so I'm slowly looking in to seeing if the motor bearings can be replaced. So far I have a motor in bits and have found they have a little ball-race at each end of the shaft. If I can firstly find a source of replacements and find a safe method of removing the old bearing (they're very tightly pressed on) then I may have a solution.

Time has so far precluded pursuing this too far but now things are looking a little better time-wise perhaps I can revisit the subject.
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Re: Water preheater- need hose size

Post by MJM »

A friend has a 1922 model T ford. The engine relies on Thermal siphoning for all of its cooling. The cabin heater is no problem, there isn't one!
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Re: Water preheater- need hose size

Post by c.morewood »

Wouldn't like to try that one in -20C :-)
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Re: Water preheater- need hose size

Post by wheeler »

CitroJim wrote:Better in a lot of respect than the Erberspacher with must haver the engine running before it operates which in some ways defeats its purpose...
You can get optional timers & even remote controls to operate Erberspacher & Webasto heaters to start up without running the engine.
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Re: Water preheater- need hose size

Post by CitroJim »

wheeler wrote:
CitroJim wrote:Better in a lot of respect than the Erberspacher with must haver the engine running before it operates which in some ways defeats its purpose...
You can get optional timers & even remote controls to operate Erberspacher & Webasto heaters to start up without running the engine.
Yes indeed but they must be pumped...
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Re: Water preheater- need hose size

Post by wheeler »

I believe the Erberspachers & Webastos are indeed self pumped.
The 'plugs in water' heating system on the old HDi's use the engines own water pump. I'm very dubious though if they are actually any benefit at all. Can't really see 4 tiny glow plugs doing much to help heat an engine from cold.
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Re: Water preheater- need hose size

Post by CitroJim »

I can only speak with authority on the Eberspacher fitted to the Xantia HDi and that one is not pumped. It relies on the engine water pump for circulation.

If the engine stops it will immediately stop too... It's controlled via the engine ECU.
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Re: Water preheater- need hose size

Post by KennyW »

Jim,

Thanks for the little note . It explains everything the fan does vary it speed the high er settings but does go fuill blast at the top setting.

Any remides, new bearing possibly?

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Re: Water preheater- need hose size

Post by CitroJim »

KennyW wrote: Any remides, new bearing possibly?
That's what I'm hoping Kenny..

Now the days are short and cold I'll have more time to play in the comfort of my workshop...

I'll let you know of any outcomes...
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Re: Water preheater- need hose size

Post by c.morewood »

CitroJim wrote:As far as I can remember on the HDi Chris, the hose that connects to the RH side of the heater matrix connector is the flow from the top of the engine (via the thermostat housing) and the LH is the return to the bottom of the engine so on that basis and to follow how I believe it works normally the circulating heater needs to be installed so it pushes hot water from its flow side toward the RH side of the matrix so that it flows firstly through the matrix and then flows around the bottom of the engine water jacket back up to the thermostat housing and back to the return side of the heater...
Well it arived last Saturday.. a week after ordering it. The first thing that struck me was just how small it is.. I expected it to be at least twice the size it is.That makes for much easier installation.
So in the diagram below silnik is the engine and nagrzewnica is the heater housing.
Image
So If I've got this right I could install the preheater just above the gearbox below the turbo and air intake pipes. That I think would be after the thermostat and on the right hand side of the heater matrix looking from the front.
Does that sound right?
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Re: Water preheater- need hose size

Post by KennyW »

Chris,

Is it sitting between thermo stat housing on engine block and matrix ie bottom half of split diagram

Image

Kenny

PS My photobucket is playing up and i can't draw lovely circles around the pic.

PPS It's now working :)
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Re: Water preheater- need hose size

Post by c.morewood »

Kenny it looks as though the hose I was talking about siting the pre heater on is no 7. Is that the thermostat housing with the wires coming out of it? (inside the red) I had thought it was at the other end of no7 attached to the engine?
If you're correct then the pre heater needs to be mounted on the short tube no 11.
Any commments from the experts?
Away tomorrow and Thu.... exhaust day, and planning on doing this on Friday with a rad flush and refill of the coolant.. thats a first for me as well at least on a Xantia.
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Re: Water preheater- need hose size

Post by miked »

Sorry for interrupting, I can't help with any advice.

Just wanted to say I'm very interested in how this works out for you. My HDi Xsara has no auxiliary heater (glow plug type or diesel powered eberspacher), and I have to admit that in the depths of winter I usually start the car 10 minutes before I set off on my 5 minute drive to work.

I know that even in summer I get 40 MPG at best until the engine warms up, compared to 50 over MPG when it's warm. It might become cost-effective to pre-heat the water before setting off in the morning using mains electricity all year round if the pump/heater you have does the trick.

The thing I'm not sure about is how well the water will circulate through the engine-driven water pump. I'm hoping you will find that even though the impeller isn't going to be 'pushed' round by the water flow, the water will still find a way through. I don't know much about water pumps though.

Having said that, is the diagram correct? The Pompa (pump) isn't on the "chlodnica" (cooler/radiator) circuit. Or is it?
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