Blue HDI

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Mandrake
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Re: Blue HDI

Post by Mandrake »

DickieG wrote:The idea of a tiny 3 cylinder engine having a big hair dryer stuck on the side to produce a high power output and amazing economy arouses the suspicion in me,,
I'm not so skeptical. I have fond memories of my '84 Daihatsu Charade turbo which was a 993cc three cylinder turbo...sure, that car weighed about as much as a feather by today's bloated car standards but that thing was a little pocket rocket and great fun to drive... :)

68bhp from memory, and that from simple 1984 era technology - it wasn't even fuel injected, rather a carburettor design... :lol:

A modern fuel injection system, bump the capacity up to 1.2 litres and a few other tweaks and I can fully believe that they can get excellent performance out of these engines for a small C1 sized car.
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Re: Blue HDI

Post by qprdude »

I dont care. I buy a car with my hard earned, because it suits me, not the Jones. I buy a big car because I like comfort and quiet. I buy a big engined car because I like plenty poke all the way through the revs. I buy the most suitable car that I can afford and as long as I CAN afford it, that's what I will continue to do. What anyone else does is no business of mine and I don't lecture, or care what others choose, be it morris minor, bike, bus or Rolls Royce
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Re: Blue HDI

Post by DickieG »

Mandrake wrote:I'm not so skeptical. I have fond memories of my '84 Daihatsu Charade turbo which was a 993cc three cylinder turbo...
Hmm, but now drive a 3.0 V6 lol #-o
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Re: Blue HDI

Post by Mandrake »

DickieG wrote:
Mandrake wrote:I'm not so skeptical. I have fond memories of my '84 Daihatsu Charade turbo which was a 993cc three cylinder turbo...
Hmm, but now drive a 3.0 V6 lol #-o
I don't see the issue ?

The question was whether a small 3 cylinder petrol engine can produce enough power to be fun to drive and economical in a small car, to which I think the answer is definitely yes.

Just because I currently drive a 3 litre V6 doesn't mean I would never drive a car with a smaller engine again nor enjoy it. If I could get my hands on a good GS again I would most definitely want to drive it and would enjoy doing so despite it not even having as much power as the Charade!
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Re: Blue HDI

Post by CitroJim »

DickieG wrote:Personally I'm reserving judgement on these new generation low cubic capacity high output engines such as Fords Ecoboost and the like as it's far too early to realise the long term results when it comes to reliability and emissions.
The little Daihatsu designed Toyota engine in my C1 has a good record for reliability and long-life it would appear. It gets its decent amount of power by the use of VVT-i rather than a turbo.

For what they are they go like stink, are very frugal and are free of VED. Nothing not to like there :-D
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Re: Blue HDI

Post by Mandrake »

Daihatsu designed the engine for Toyota which is used in the C1 ? I hadn't realised that...no wonder its good... :wink:
Last edited by Mandrake on 17 Sep 2014, 18:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re: Blue HDI

Post by Northern_Mike »

Mandrake wrote:
DickieG wrote:The idea of a tiny 3 cylinder engine having a big hair dryer stuck on the side to produce a high power output and amazing economy arouses the suspicion in me,,
I'm not so skeptical. I have fond memories of my '84 Daihatsu Charade turbo which was a 993cc three cylinder turbo...sure, that car weighed about as much as a feather by today's bloated car standards but that thing was a little pocket rocket and great fun to drive... :)

68bhp from memory, and that from simple 1984 era technology - it wasn't even fuel injected, rather a carburettor design... :lol:
My R5 GT Turbo had 118bhp from 1397 carb - fed, pushrod cc.

It weighed 880kgs IIRC.

What a car, well, it was when it wasn't blowing gaskets or leaking or on fire.

I think that's Richard's point. It's easy enough to get the power out of these small engines, but how long are they going to last under such stress? I know there's been plenty of issues with the small Golf 1.4 TSI motor melting pistons and destroying itself. I've got two friends who've had them - got new as company cars, and both did the same thing.

The technology is obviously there as now we're seeing 700bhp or more reliably from 1500cc F1 engines, using a single turbo. I'm not aware of a single engine failure this year (plenty of ERS/electrical issues but not a failure of the internal combustion engine part).

Only time will tell.




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Re: Re: Blue HDI

Post by Bob L'eponge »

northern_mike wrote: My R5 GT Turbo had 118bhp from 1397 carb - fed, pushrod cc.

It weighed 880kgs IIRC.

What a car, well, it was when it wasn't blowing gaskets or leaking or on fire.
Brilliant! :lol:
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Re: Blue HDI

Post by CitroJim »

Mandrake wrote:Daihatsu designed the engine for Toyota which is used in the C1 ? I hadn't realised that...no wonder its good... :wink:
Indeed. I was surprised when I discovered that...

Daihatsu are the masters of the little engine 8-)
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Post by addo »

I reckon my brain is like one of that type engine. Small capacity, running flat stick so it "seems" like a bigger one. :?
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Re: Blue HDI

Post by qprdude »

1.5 F1 car engines are designed to last how long?
(Two engine failures so far this season)
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Post by Northern_Mike »

1000 miles plus whatever they're used for in testing, though they are driven considerable harder than they might be done on the road.

I wasn't aware there'd been any IC engine failures this year...

Anyway, my mid-90s Impreza came with 260bhp from 2 litres from the factory, that's 130bhp/litre and was still going strong with over 100k on it. No reason why an engine half that size shouldn't put out 110-120bhp reliably.

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Re: Blue HDI

Post by Lighty »

I think the 1.2 three cylinder engine will be just fine, I believe Ford can do a 180 bhp version of their 1.0 ecoboost, so 110 out of a 1.2. For all of you who have commented on this, but not tried one of these, I suggest you have a go, because the way they drive is staggering, the previously mentioned Daihatsu needed to be revved quite a bit, these new ones do not.
Sorry this has turned into an Eco debate, can't say I am especially worried ( even though I have a Twizy) there are plenty of other causes of CO 2 pollution besides any car I have. My 911 is £500 a year to tax for around 2000 miles, so I have all aspects of pollution covered .
Just thought the change in technology was a massive point, not to be overlooked with the Ad blue system.
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Re: Blue HDI

Post by DickieG »

Mandrake wrote:
DickieG wrote:
Mandrake wrote:I'm not so skeptical. I have fond memories of my '84 Daihatsu Charade turbo which was a 993cc three cylinder turbo...
Hmm, but now drive a 3.0 V6 lol #-o
I don't see the issue ?

The question was whether a small 3 cylinder petrol engine can produce enough power to be fun to drive and economical in a small car, to which I think the answer is definitely yes.

Just because I currently drive a 3 litre V6 doesn't mean I would never drive a car with a smaller engine again nor enjoy it. If I could get my hands on a good GS again I would most definitely want to drive it and would enjoy doing so despite it not even having as much power as the Charade!
You say you have fond memories of driving a small engined car yet now drive a version with an engine 50% larger than any other available on the same car, do you not see the irony in that? :lol:

My point is that these small engines are not just being used to power small car's, they are being used in quite sizeable cars such as C-Max's and the like where previously a 2.0 would have been the norm hence why I'm questioning the issue around long term reliability, how many turbo's will they get through in 100k miles and in fact will they even get to 100k miles? Just think of the stress being put through a con rod, big end and block in an engine that is built down to a price, are you not at all suspicious about their long term prospects?

When it comes to emissions what appears to be the way to go today, in a few years time becomes the devil, hence why I'm reserving judgment on these small petrol engines until they have been properly proven in service.
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Re: Blue HDI

Post by Mandrake »

DickieG wrote:You say you have fond memories of driving a small engined car yet now drive a version with an engine 50% larger than any other available on the same car, do you not see the irony in that? :lol:
But I didn't buy this car with economy or the environment in mind, I bought the V6 because I do still love the Xantia and after previously owning and driving the 2 litre models wanted to at least once, have the most powerful version of the Xantia that was produced purely for fun and enjoyment and sheer grin inducing appeal before they all go the way of the dodo... Now that I've found a good one I fully expect this to be the last Xantia I ever own and its also unlikely my next car will be a V6. For various reasons my next car will probably have to be much more practical. But for now I will enjoy it! :)

That doesn't mean I can't enjoy smaller engined cars...
My point is that these small engines are not just being used to power small car's, they are being used in quite sizeable cars such as C-Max's and the like where previously a 2.0 would have been the norm
I'm old enough (and I'm guessing you are too) to remember the days when a mid sized car that today has a 2 litre engine as standard would come with 1300cc or 1600cc if you were very lucky. Carburettor too. Somehow we got by in those days with those "tiny" engines installed in mid sized cars...

Throw some actual modern technology at those 1300 cc'ish sizes such as modern materials and lubricants, fuel injection, VVT, modern turbos etc and I see no reason why they can't perform well and still last. For 1.2 litre you don't need 4 cylinders either. For anything below about 1.2 litre 3 larger cylinders performs better and is more robust than 4 smaller cylinders of the same total cc. Daihatsu knew that 30 years ago when they developed their 3 cylinder 1 and then later 1.2 litre engines and continued to develop them for decades.

Even those early 80's 3 cylinder Daihatsu engines were very robust and did huge mileages - the turbo was a bit iffy I'll admit and I did destroy a turbo in mine (albeit the car was already 13 years old and high mileage when I bought it) but the non turbo version of those 3 cylinders (of which I knew several friends who owned them) went on forever without problems. It can be done.
When it comes to emissions what appears to be the way to go today, in a few years time becomes the devil, hence why I'm reserving judgment on these small petrol engines until they have been properly proven in service.
If ever stricter emissions regulations are on the horizon it still seems to me that Diesel is the wrong horse to back. Eventually the stuff hanging off the engine to meet the emissions is going to become ridiculously burdensome... some would even say we've already reached that point.

Compare that to a petrol where a modern fuel injection system and 3 way cat can achieve extremely low emissions with little difficulty. Treated well the cat can last the lifetime of the car without maintenance, unlike a DPF that requires maintenance or replacement if not regularly regenerated.
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