2005 C5 weird rear wheel position query - pics added

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Post by daviemck2006 »

Mine was like that, although I never measured it and it is not now so I still say it's the radius arm bearing.
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Re: 2005 C5 weird rear wheel position query - pics added

Post by dave_s13 »

I had a look underneath and the subframe mounts look secure to me.

I'll try to measure the relative wheel positions later if I can.

Question re replacing the bearings (if needed). Can you do it without draining the hydraulic system? Can you unbolt the suspension dampers/spheres from the arm then remove and replace. the garage I've spoken to aren't sure and don't have the kit to refil and recharge the system (expensive fluid + specialist kit needed).

Thanks for the replies so far anyway, very helpful. :)
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Re: 2005 C5 weird rear wheel position query - pics added

Post by dave_s13 »

Another point to add.

I do find it odd that the car still drives perectly straight and true. I wonder if that excess toe in is being allowed for by play in the bearing ie. it's finding it's true position when on the move and under laod. Or the car could be crabbing slightly, or there could slight play in the other side too that's taking up the slack.

Weird.

I can't imagine the bodywork is to blame, all the sill trim panels are fixed securely and in the right places, unless they literally welded the car on in the wrong place! Maybe they could've.
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Re: 2005 C5 weird rear wheel position query - pics added

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Looks to me to be possibly a broken sub frame mounting, possibly on either side, on the left allowing the frame to move back (most likely) or on the right to move forward. The top mountings are rubber and steel sandwiches that can become un-bonded. Hardly noticeable from underneath because the weight of the car is sitting on them.

It used to be a common fault on the old BL stuff, minis, 1100s 1800s etc. on rough roads they'd make slapping noises.
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Re: 2005 C5 weird rear wheel position query - pics added

Post by dave_s13 »

Gotit booked in with these chaps

http://www.aptmotors.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quoted £165 inv VAT which doesn't sound to bad to me.

I'll update with how it all goes.
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Re: 2005 C5 weird rear wheel position query - pics added

Post by Mandrake »

dave_s13 wrote: I do find it odd that the car still drives perectly straight and true. I wonder if that excess toe in is being allowed for by play in the bearing ie. it's finding it's true position when on the move and under laod. Or the car could be crabbing slightly, or there could slight play in the other side too that's taking up the slack.
Gibbo2286 wrote:Looks to me to be possibly a broken sub frame mounting, possibly on either side, on the left allowing the frame to move back (most likely) or on the right to move forward. The top mountings are rubber and steel sandwiches that can become un-bonded. Hardly noticeable from underneath because the weight of the car is sitting on them.
IMHO there is no way the rear arm bearing could be worn so badly to let the wheel position be 20mm (looks like it from your photos) too far forward or back without the car feeling terrible to drive and the rear wheels leaning in like crazy. It's not going to be the arm bearings.

I reckon it's a broken subframe mounting or mountings too Gibbo. They're a bit like engine mountings and fail in the same sort of way, and tend not to be noticed until they're almost destroyed.

If the whole subframe turns due to a couple of broken mounts it's not necessarily going to upset the geometry or handling significantly even though one wheel might be 20mm back.

I had a similar thing happen to me on my old GS where a head on impact on the front left corner crumpled the underlying body structure where the suspension sub chassis mounted slightly so that the front left wheel was actually 20mm further back than the front right wheel. (confirmed by measuring centre to centre from front to rear wheels)

The front suspension on a GS is entirely contained on a sub chassis (like the rear suspension on a Xantia/C5) and there was no damage to the suspension chassis or arms themselves, just the whole sub chassis was rotated slightly due to the body crumpling slightly at the mounts. That car drove and handled absolutely perfectly with no hint of any suspension problems, although I'm sure if you watched it from behind it was probably driving ever so slightly crabwise! :lol:

So in my opinion a few degrees of rotation of the rear suspension sub chassis on failed mounts - enough to cause one wheel to be visibly further back than the other would not have any obvious effect on the handling...
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Re: 2005 C5 weird rear wheel position query - pics added

Post by dave_s13 »

Mandrake wrote:
dave_s13 wrote: I do find it odd that the car still drives perectly straight and true. I wonder if that excess toe in is being allowed for by play in the bearing ie. it's finding it's true position when on the move and under laod. Or the car could be crabbing slightly, or there could slight play in the other side too that's taking up the slack.
Gibbo2286 wrote:Looks to me to be possibly a broken sub frame mounting, possibly on either side, on the left allowing the frame to move back (most likely) or on the right to move forward. The top mountings are rubber and steel sandwiches that can become un-bonded. Hardly noticeable from underneath because the weight of the car is sitting on them.
IMHO there is no way the rear arm bearing could be worn so badly to let the wheel position be 20mm (looks like it from your photos) too far forward or back without the car feeling terrible to drive and the rear wheels leaning in like crazy. It's not going to be the arm bearings.

I reckon it's a broken subframe mounting or mountings too Gibbo. They're a bit like engine mountings and fail in the same sort of way, and tend not to be noticed until they're almost destroyed.

If the whole subframe turns due to a couple of broken mounts it's not necessarily going to upset the geometry or handling significantly even though one wheel might be 20mm back.

I had a similar thing happen to me on my old GS where a head on impact on the front left corner crumpled the underlying body structure where the suspension sub chassis mounted slightly so that the front left wheel was actually 20mm further back than the front right wheel. (confirmed by measuring centre to centre from front to rear wheels)

The front suspension on a GS is entirely contained on a sub chassis (like the rear suspension on a Xantia/C5) and there was no damage to the suspension chassis or arms themselves, just the whole sub chassis was rotated slightly due to the body crumpling slightly at the mounts. That car drove and handled absolutely perfectly with no hint of any suspension problems, although I'm sure if you watched it from behind it was probably driving ever so slightly crabwise! :lol:

So in my opinion a few degrees of rotation of the rear suspension sub chassis on failed mounts - enough to cause one wheel to be visibly further back than the other would not have any obvious effect on the handling...
Fair point.

Hopefully the garage it's booked in with on Friday will shed some light on what's going on...and fix it for not too much money!

One thing I haven't done is follow the car to check for crabbing, I can try this later.
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Re: 2005 C5 weird rear wheel position query - pics added

Post by dave_s13 »

So a new radius arm bearing has been fitted; and you can see the nice new shiney bolts/threads so I believe him!

And the wheel is still not the same as the other side!

It is a bit better though. Previously there was about 10mm difference when I measured from the leading edge of the tyre to the arsch, this is now nearer 5, but it still "looks" out (to me anyway). Also measuring from rear/front wheel centres sees the offside being around 5mm more.

The guy that did it is a well establish citroen specialist and could not see how the subframe could have moved and if it had, because of a mounting, then it would be noticeable when driving. As it stands the car drives perfectly (it did before). I've not driven behind it to check for crabbing though. he did also say the bearing was worn and fell to bits when it came out.

I still think the offside wheel is slightly toed in too but it's hard to quantify without proper tracking gear.

SO, ultimately I'm not sure what to do. The garage said they would ring Citroen on monday and see if they could come up with a reason. There is nothing loose, no knocking, banging the tyre wear is even both sides (slightly more wear on insides) the car drives perfectly (very nice car to drive btw).

I'm thinking this is just one of those things to live with.
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Post by Jovani »

Hi, my C5-2 is in 230000 km, and I twice replace bearings on rear arms. First on 95000km. and second on 200000km. Picture from process here on bulgarian Citroen forum but to see it maybe need registration aka. Guest http://clubcitroen.bg/forum/viewtopic.php?f=179&t=27245" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: 2005 C5 weird rear wheel position query - pics added

Post by myglaren »

You have to log in to that site Jovani and that isn't easy if you don't speak (read) Bulgarian.

ED:

If opened in Google Chrome(ium) it will translate and make it easier though:

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Re: 2005 C5 weird rear wheel position query - pics added

Post by dave_s13 »

I did try to register on there with a bit of help from google translate (my bulgarian is лайна) and it hasn't worked, didn't get an activation email??

Will it help though, Jovani mentions it describes how to change the bearings, not why my wheel is in the wrong place???
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Re: 2005 C5 weird rear wheel position query - pics added

Post by Gibbo2286 »

I've just measured the distances on my 2004 C5 and they're spot on the same, not a millimetre out.
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Post by waynedance »

My 2003 looks the same both sides.
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Post by Axa »

It seems like all bearings that need replacing are more or less damaged by rust. I filled my new bearings with propshaftgreas (marine grease) It is exceptionally sticky and made to withstand moisture. Should prolong the life of the bearings significantly compared to the standard molybdenum grease.
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Re: 2005 C5 weird rear wheel position query - pics added

Post by mikeC5 »

Just come across this interesting post. Thought I'd measure my 2005 C5 (facelift) an both sides measure 2755mm.
The book says 2815mm!
Just a thought - my car is parked on level ground. Would the measurements be different if one wheel is higher/lower than the other, i.e. one rear wheel is further round the arc ? (Mind you, it doesn't look like it from the pics!)

dave_s13 - Did you ever get to the bottom of the problem or just.....?
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