Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

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Mandrake
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Post by Mandrake »

Right, so I managed to cut off the rest of the nearside half of the scuttle (which was already broken in two when I bought the car) without any further damage beyond the two glass cracks and the glass chip from the other day :roll: and here is how much access I have now - this should be enough to continue with the heater matrix and move the wiper motor if necessary ?
IMG_5574.JPEG
I can feel a couple of rubber caps about 25mm in diameter above the wiper motor - are those the rubber caps over the nuts that need removing ?

I found a couple of Skeleton's in the closest once I got this piece off - basically, someone has been here before and I don't think I'm responsible for lifting the glass chip in the corner - I think it was already cracked previously: :evil:
IMG_5575.JPEG
Above I've highlighted a huge gob of very, very soft putty which is surely not factory original ??!

In the middle the missing chipped section of glass, (still stuck to the scuttle) and on the right hand side is fogging of the glass which as far as I can remember has been there since I've had the car and certainly for many years - I've always assumed there was moisture getting into the layers of the glass but as long as rainwater wasn't getting in I didn't worry about it.

However in the photo it's very clear that there is a path of fogging that runs from the white fogged area back to where the glass chip is missing, and there is also a crack in the middle of the bottom layer in the chip area which lines up with this, so the chipped area would seem to be the entry point for the moisture and therefore must have already been chipped for a long time.

Here is the underneath of the scuttle:
IMG_5576.JPEG
Together with the fact that the scuttle seems to have been cut cleanly in half, I'm pretty confident now that someone has been here before trying to fix a leak into the air vent, has stuck big blobs of putty there to try to deflect a leak, has managed to lift a chunk out of the top layer of glass and this has resulted in moisture getting in between the layers and eventually the big white fogged patch.

So while I'm to blame for the two crack lines (probably from twisting a wide blade, in hindsight :( ) it seems likely the lifted chip of glass and fogged patch is someone else's fault, so I don't feel QUITE so bad now. Given that I'm only the 2nd owner of the car and the first owner was very elderly and took the car religiously to dealer servicing it makes me wonder who would have done such a bodge ?

The under side of the scuttle doesn't look as bad as the top to be honest, and now that I see how it all fits together the vertical hairline cracks shouldn't have any effect on the ability to seal out rainwater as long as the main horizontal bead of sealant is done properly.

I'm hoping to find another scuttle but if I can't, I guess this one will just have to do...
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Post by Mandrake »

HELP! So close to getting the dash out but I'm stuck. #-o

I removed the offside "piece" of the scuttle without too much difficulty, and for good measure I removed the entire wiper motor assembly and cleaned out all the leaves etc from the troughs, from that I was able to easily find the three 10mm bolts to remove, and left in the 13mm bolt as advised in Citrojim's method.

I've then done all the dash disassembly and managed to get it to pull out a good two or three inches on all sides however something is still stopping it and it feels like it's behind the instrument cluster! Possibly part of the cable loom which comes through under the instrument cluster.

There is no mention of the instrument cluster in Citrojim's instructions, however it seems to me that it needs to come out ?! I've disconnected all the plugs along the bottom, removed the two screws at the bottom and the one screw at the top, but I can't figure out how to get it out, it seems to be firmly attached at the top or at least wedged in.

I know earlier Xantia's like my Dad's 1994 had a speedo cable into the back of the speedometer but I believe my 1997 has an electronic speedo. I'd like to remove the instrument cluster to get a better view of what might be snagging behind.

Any hints on how to get the instrument cluster out ? I remember removing the instrument cluster on Dad's Xantia years ago without removing the dashboard so I know it must be possible....

Having a wee break after working on this for hours so hopefully someone will chime in with instrument cluster removal tips. [-o<
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Mandrake
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Post by Mandrake »

Success! The dashboard is out, so tomorrow I start on the heater matrix itself.... [-o<
IMG_5611.JPEG
I notice all the foam strips that seal the heater ducts are sticky and barely there anymore, I guess I'll have to get some stick on foam to replace those ? Might explain why the heater vents have been a bit pathetic....
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Just watch out for Neo, Trinity, Morpheus and the rest of the gang! :D
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Post by Mandrake »

Now stuck on disconnecting the heater matrix in the engine bay. :(

I ran the engine enough to get the heater matrix pipes hot (but not the radiator so I don't cook myself lying over the engine :twisted: ) as suggested and I've been out there for about half an hour continuously pulling on and wiggling the right angled joints (with the metal clip pushed to the passenger side) to no avail.

On the plus side, I haven't broken it, yet...which probably means I'm being too cautious.... the problem is I just can't get a good straight pull on the fittings - and pulling at the elbow of the right angle joints probably puts too much torque on the joint to allow it to pull cleanly away, despite plenty of up/down wiggling.

I think I'm going to have to give up for tonight as my wrists and tendons in my arms can't take any more.

Am I missing something ? Is it really only just shy of impossible to do this job ? :lol: Easily the worst job I've done on any car, ever, for sheer difficulty.

BTW Newcastlefalcon - looking at the images of your spare right angled heater matrix joint it seems to be upside down compared to mine ??!

The pipes on the inside of the car on mine angle to the left towards the passenger, while the right angle joints in the engine bay point down. Your picture seems to suggest the opposite...that if the inside pipes angle left the engine bay ones would point up ??? Are you sure your picture isn't a mirror image. :?:

Or have you perhaps pushed it back together the wrong way around ?
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Post by Mandrake »

One thing that has occurred to me - CitroJim's method of removal says to run the engine for a while to heat up the coolant - presumably to make the joint less brittle and prone to cracking, however I wonder if developing pressure in the coolant system helps to force the heater matrix connector in the engine bay apart once the clip is released ?

If so, I had deliberately left the header tank cap loose to prevent pressure building up, as that results in a lot of leakage from the matrix into the carpet... (but none with the cap loose)

Maybe I need to put a catch tray over the carpet and tighten the cap next time to ensure that some pressure builds up in the system to help force the joint apart ?
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Post by xantia_v6 »

I don't think that the pressure will help significantly, it is not pressing on many square inches.

Can you cut off the plastic manifold inside the car, and then dissect it in the engine compartment? I suppose not, or I would have tried it myself.

I have used the trick of tying a piece of string around the fitting on the end of the hoses, to get a straighter pull, but that is also how I broke one.
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Post by Mandrake »

Second day trying to get this fitting to let go - just can't get it to release. :(

I'm starting to wonder if someone has glued the joint.... I think this heater matrix may have been replaced before - a combination of the scuttle being broken in half, putty and a glass chip in the corner of the window and I've noticed the screws on the top of the matrix are not fitted either! (So it's just relying on the plastic tab clips) #-o So yeah, I don't think this is the original matrix in the car...

I've tried levering both sides from behind using a variety of objects - a cold chisel, a file, a large Allan key, even the nail remover of a hammer. I've put enough force on it that I'd be sure I'd break it but it hasn't broken yet, and also hasn't budged yet either, no gain whatsoever in position. I've even sprayed some penetrating lubricant into both joints, all to no effect. It really does seem like someone has put a dab of locktite or similar on it, as there is no way a push fit seal with a rubber o-ring is this strong.
xantia_v6 wrote:
29 May 2022, 23:31
Can you cut off the plastic manifold inside the car, and then dissect it in the engine compartment? I suppose not, or I would have tried it myself.
I don't think you would need to cut it - there is a bolted flange at the top of the matrix that looks like it would disconnect the pipes - presumably there are internal o-rings at the joint to seal the removable section. This joint seems to have some leakage on my matrix and may in fact be the source of the leak, although I won't know for sure unless I can get it out....
IMG_5630.JPEG
It's tempting to think that you could disconnect this joint on the inner pipes, remove the two screws on the plate on the engine side (although the left screw is VERY difficult to get to with the pipes still in place) and then push the whole thing through into the engine bay where the joints could be more easily got at, (and rotated separately to free them) however it looks to me like the inner plastic flange in the photo above makes it impossible to push the pipes through into the engine bay and that they can only withdraw into the cabin ?

Running out of ideas here - I'm at the start of a 5 day weekend but without a breakthrough in separating these pipes the job is completely stalled and the rest of the weekend will go to waste. :(
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Post by RichardW »

I found this in the archive Simon
LeeDJC wrote:
22 Jul 2007, 17:51
Well.....it's all done! It took longer than required due to the disasterous weather!!!

I couldn't remove the elbow bracket from the bulkhead, so had to disconnect the matrix from inside. Luckily the new one was a direct replacement, so bolted straight on in the passenger compartment.

Also changed the carpet for a nice one that wasn't all stained up. When I removed the old carpet, I was amazed at how much coolant was floating about! It somehow managed to get right back to the rear footwells!

Somebody posted further up that the best tip for doing the matrix was to get someone else to do it....I concur. It's a bast*rd of a job that isn't technically difficult, but just takes forever!

Also the aircon gets in the way when removing the airbox making life a tad more difficult!

Now I just have to wait for the cold weather........

So it has been done the inside way... does the new matrix look like it will marry up to the connector? ISTR there is something about that connection that means you should be wary of disturbing it, but it may just be that there's no way of checking it's sealed once in.
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote:
02 Jun 2022, 16:11
I found this in the archive Simon
LeeDJC wrote:
22 Jul 2007, 17:51
Well.....it's all done! It took longer than required due to the disasterous weather!!!

I couldn't remove the elbow bracket from the bulkhead, so had to disconnect the matrix from inside. Luckily the new one was a direct replacement, so bolted straight on in the passenger compartment.

Also changed the carpet for a nice one that wasn't all stained up. When I removed the old carpet, I was amazed at how much coolant was floating about! It somehow managed to get right back to the rear footwells!

Somebody posted further up that the best tip for doing the matrix was to get someone else to do it....I concur. It's a bast*rd of a job that isn't technically difficult, but just takes forever!

Also the aircon gets in the way when removing the airbox making life a tad more difficult!

Now I just have to wait for the cold weather........
So it has been done the inside way... does the new matrix look like it will marry up to the connector? ISTR there is something about that connection that means you should be wary of disturbing it, but it may just be that there's no way of checking it's sealed once in.
I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that the joint in the engine bay is never letting go without breaking... :( There must be a long length of plastic to plastic sleeve overlap past the o-rings which will have bound together for some reason - perhaps the forte stop leak put in years ago has filtered into there and gummed it together... and with it being impossible to get a straight pull on the tube it just won't budge.

Both old and new matrix's have the same detachable joint however the outer moulding differs a little and one has screws while the other has bolts. Here is the comparison:
IMG_5630.JPEG
IMG_5634.JPEG
So there is no guarantee that the two matrix's are flange compatible. (Although on the other hand why have a flange at all unless it is meant as a way of removing it ?) It's also not clear how they seal - whether they use a face seal, or there is a tube with an o-ring over it etc. I'm not willing to pull the new one apart first in case there is a problem sealing it again.

I've managed to get the old one partially apart but can't separate it while the aircon box is still in place unfortunately. :(
IMG_5633.JPEG
Citrojim's method leaves the Aircon box in place and separates the aircon box from the heater box, unfortunately that appears to be impossible with this method - to separate the flange sufficiently the heater box needs to go to the left - which it can't do because the aircon box is still in the way, and to separate the heater box from the aircon it needs to go to the right - which it can't do because the heater matrix pipes are still in the way. #-o

So that means removing the aircon box, which means trying to access THE BOLT FROM HELL. :cry:
IMG_5632.JPEG
I've removed the coolant expansion bottle and while I can see the nut I can't get anything onto it. Looks like the LHM tank would have to come out, however there is another problem - there is an array of hydraulic pipes right in the way of any socket drive which means I'd have to remove one or two of those as well, and they're all severely rusted so will probably just round off, not to mention I can't get at them without taking the LHM tank out.

I seem to be going deeper and deeper down a rabbit hole with no end in sight yet. Definitely the worst job I've ever had to do on a car and a piece of incredibly bad design on Citroen's part.
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Post by Mandrake »

Does anyone know where the blinker module is in the Xantia ?

I've done a partial reassembly to take the car for a test drive (dashboard still out and a few things not plugged in) but I can't get the blinkers to work!! Everything else on both stalks is working.

When I turn on the hazard button I get a single click from somewhere but no flashing either.

I can't seem to find anything unplug that would be related to the blinkers and I've reinserted the green relay below the diagnostic socket as well which is the only one I removed.

Also when testing the other day I noted that the air con evaporator temperature sensor on the Lexia only seems to read ambient air temperature and does not drop when the air conditioning is turned on, even though the air does feel like it is getting cooler. (But maybe not as cold as it should be) I'm worried that I might have caused an A/C leak when I had to pull the A/C box forward a few inches...
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Post by Mandrake »

Does anyone have wiring diagrams covering the blinker circuitry on a S1 1997 Xantia ?

I have Sedre but it only covers S2 and there are a lot of differences in the electrical systems of S1 and S2 to the point where it's not even worth looking as it will just confuse the issue.

I'm trying to find out where the blinker module is, where the wiring runs from indicator stalk to blinker module, also which fuse it runs from, as I don't have an owners manual with the fuse list.

I'm afraid that I might have done some damage to the wiring somewhere and I don't want to reassemble all the dashboard etc and find out the blinkers still aren't working with everything plugged in and have to take it all apart again... #-o

As far as I can see everything that could possibly be related to blinkers is already plugged in and I can't find anything aside from blinkers that isn't working.
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Post by Mandrake »

In the meantime an update on the progress last weekend that I have not had a chance to report on yet. :)

I removed the coolant expansion vessel then managed to get the LHM tank out without disconnecting any hoses or emptying the oil (!) and sat the LHM riser in a plastic bag, this gave me enough room to get at the nut holding the aircon box in and get it removed. Phew! Thanks Citroen for this genius arrangement. :roll:

This allowed me to pull the heater box and aircon box forward a few inches - it was at this point that it dawned on me that the hoses for the aircon come into the box on the left hand side and limit how far you can drop the box forward. DOH!

However it turns out that if you also separate the heater and aircon boxes with the two bolts and a few smaller screws, (including removing the heater controller module) that you can JUST wiggle things around enough to separate the heater matrix pipes at the joint, and JUST tip the heater box far enough towards you so the heater matrix can clear the window! [-o<

This is what this joint looks like - nothing mysterious - just a flange with the pipe side on the right and the hole in the matrix with a seal that fits over the pipe in the hole:
IMG_5656.JPEG
So when I got it out it was obvious where the leak is - both o-rings had gone square profiled and HARD, and there was an obvious leak stain from the joint all the way down inside the corner of the matrix enclosure. As far as I can see the matrix itself is not leaking only the joint where I separated it!

There was some liquid in the bottom that needed cleaning out, and you can see in the top right corner where the leak was going into the box from the joint:
IMG_5659.JPEG
I spent quite a bit of time thoroughly soaking this up then wiping down all the insides of the box with a wet cloth to remove any trace of stinky coolant... some time later I noticed there was another pool of liquid at the motorised flap hinge as well and had to clean that out:
IMG_5664.JPEG
Here's the old matrix and one of its hard o-rings, and you can clearly see corrosion around the top of the matrix where the leak was:
IMG_5660.JPEG
So I separated the angle pipe section off the new matrix so that I could do a fit test and confirm the old and new are interchangeable at this joint and disaster! From the factory they had assembled the joint with absolutely zero lubricant and one of the seals was badly pinched and probably would have leaked if I hadn't separated the joint and discovered this. :evil:

So I had to scramble to find somewhere local to get some new o-rings. I managed to find an o-ring specialist online at the nearest industrial estate so went over to see them - they measured the old o-ring as 2.3mm by 19mm but the nearest they had was 2.5mm by 19mm, so I took a chance on that and grabbed four for a tenner.

The o-rings on the new matrix are slightly smaller diameter than those on the old one so I figured there was a little room for a fractionally larger one. So on went loads of vaseline for a test fit of one of the o-rings in both holes to make sure I could push the joint together flush and pull it apart again without any pinching of the seal.

The new seals are better quality than the very soft pinch-prone seals that came with the matrix and I was able to push it together and pull it apart several times with no damage to the seal so I decided that was good enough.

Reassembly was a challenge because you're trying to juggle the aircon and heater boxes while they're still separated and maneuverer the flange fitting into place without damaging or dropping the seals, and get both boxes bolted together and onto the firewall before doing final tightening of the flange joint.

There is a slight difference in the length and angle of the angle section compared to the original so the matrix doesn't sit fully down in the slot, but it will have to do:
IMG_5662.JPEG
Some air does leak out around the top of the matrix with the fan on full but, MEH! I think it may have been doing that before as well.

After that I reinstalled the LHM tank, filled and bled the coolant system and let it idle for about an hour and there were no signs of leaks.

Today I've warmed it right up again and run it at 2000 for a while to get it piping hot and pressure built up and I don't see any leaks so I think the matrix repair is a success!

But then when I tried to plug in enough to go for a quick test drive I can't get the blinkers working hence my last two posts.... #-o
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Post by myglaren »

Hand signals Simon!
Or pretend that you are driving a BMW.
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Post by mickthemaverick »

myglaren wrote:
11 Jun 2022, 16:25
Hand signals Simon!
Or pretend that you are driving a BMW.
Or an Audi!! :-D