Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

Moderators: RichardW, myglaren

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8410
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 411

Re: Re:

Post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote:
When I fitted my vice I welded up a frame of angle iron and bolted the vice down through that, and put in a 4x2 support under the edge of the bench. Not had any problems with it trying to move :mrgreen:
Is that welder of yours portable Richard ? :twisted:
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8410
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 411

Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by Mandrake »

xantia_v6 wrote:I think I agree with Simon here, the mass of the hub and carrier is enough that the torque reaction through the steering will be no more than the torque through the handle of the rattle gun.
CitroJim wrote:We need a definitive answer to this :wink:

I'll admit I don't like to use too much force on steering components so I may well be being very conservative here...
I've been giving some thought to this and I think a rattle gun would exert far less (order of magnitude at least) force on the suspension/steering components than the scaffold pole technique shown in the video, a method that I've used once before and don't particularly like...

I'll admit to not having ever used a rattle gun but I've certainly watched them being used many times and think I understand how hey work... they're basically a rotational "hammer" that repeatedly applies a very high peak torque "impact" for a very short time such that the average torque (and thus reaction torque) is actually very low - less than 1/10th of the peak impact torque, maybe much lower.

After all - you're holding the rattle gun like a drill in one hand with only a foot long handle - so the total reaction torque must be quite low on the order of 20-30Nm even though the peak torque might be 450Nm.

You can undo wheel nuts on a wheel that is off the ground and free to turn with a rattle gun with the wheel hardly starting to turn because the mass of the wheel smooths out the brief torque pulses and only responds to the much lower reaction torque. As long as the hub has a reasonable amount of mass it too should average out the brief torque pulses and see very little reaction - certainly nothing that would do any harm to the suspension components.

If it does indeed have enough peak torque to undo the joint (which I'm not certain about) then it would do it with far less strain than applying continuous torque with a very long pole.

Another analogy is when I was trying to undo the front hydractive sphere on my car - with continuous torque from the sphere tool and an extension it was just bending the mounting bracket - I'm sure I would have bent and broken the bracket before the sphere let go just using a longer bar.

But simply hammering on the handle of the tool with my block hammer to rotate it freed the sphere quickly and easily without bending the bracket at all - very high peak torque from the hammer blows but low average torque...a rattle gun would probably be brilliant for freeing tough spheres if only there was an easy way to couple it solidly to the sphere...

I think I will definitely get the above mentioned rattle gun when I come to do the ball-joint, because I can see a LOT of other jobs that it could be extremely useful for too. (And I've always wanted one... :twisted: )

I'll try the rattle gun first but have other more conventional methods at the ready in case it fails to undo the joint...
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 43889
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1780

Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by CitroJim »

Simon, you're exactly right on how rattle guns work. Indeed they do, under normal circumstances, allow things that are free to rotate to be undone successfully.

For a properly tight swivel though you'll be needing a very meaty rattle gun and they can exert all sorts of forces. I know the one Team WFA has is of the very meaty variety and it's like handling a very powerful machine gun! One needs to keep a very tight grip and be prepared for recoil.

We've all see the joke videos where someone spins round with a big electric drill when it's got snagged and the other one where a racing car is supposedly flipped when a rattle gun is used to swap a wheel on it. My concern is that trying to use a beefy one on something really tight that's attached to something that's free to swing about and is only restrained by a track rod and the rubbery bits of a strut top may end up a bit 'interesting' unless an iron grip is kept on the gun. That's easier to do when the workpiece is horizontal and you can get into a good working position with the tool but in the case of a swivel you'll be trying it on something not quite vertical and likely either kneeling or lying and potentially not holding the tool optimally with a poor grip and posture.

If the car was up on a ramp and the strut/hub was dangling at chest-level then that would allow a much better posture and grip on the tool and then perhaps a good result.

And finally, there is a risk of injury if it all gets too 'interesting'

As I've said before, I'm terribly conservative (small c I hasten to add) in such matters as these and here I may be overly so but what I say does come from experience of using these tools in a variety of situations.
Hell Razor5543
Donor 2021
Posts: 11857
Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
x 1458

Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I remember when Chris was attempting to undo a large nut on that RX8 engine using a massive rattle gun, and all that happened was the engine spun around on the floor! Great heat was needed to get that nut 'cracked' (Oxy Acetylene, IIRC!).
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 43889
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1780

Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by CitroJim »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:I remember when Chris was attempting to undo a large nut on that RX8 engine using a massive rattle gun, and all that happened was the engine spun around on the floor! Great heat was needed to get that nut 'cracked' (Oxy Acetylene, IIRC!).
That's right James :-D It didn't move until it was all glowing red-hot :lol: Then it was easy..

Sometimes the hot spanner is the only tool to use.. I have, once, resorted to using it on a particularly stubborn swivel. You have to be very careful then you don't melt all the grease out of the wheel bearing...
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 9563
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
x 463

Re: Re:

Post by RichardW »

Mandrake wrote: Is that welder of yours portable Richard ? :twisted:
I reckon so 8-) You just need a good power supply out in the garage if heavy gauge stuff is going to be welded.... :lol:
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8410
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 411

Re: Re:

Post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote:
Mandrake wrote: Is that welder of yours portable Richard ? :twisted:
I reckon so 8-) You just need a good power supply out in the garage if heavy gauge stuff is going to be welded.... :lol:
I do fancy a well mounted beefy vice in the garage if I've got room for it. :twisted:

The garage is not particularly wide but from what I can remember it's quite long so should have room for a small work bench at the far end, in fact it may already have a wooden bench there, I thought I saw one but I can't quite remember. :oops: (We were so taken with the place as a whole when we saw it that we didn't pay attention to some of the smaller details - for example I don't even remember if there were any TRV's on the radiators... :lol: )

I also don't know if there is proper power in the garage or not - if there isn't I'll need to get an electrician in to wire up some proper power points as apart from power tools and lights I plan to run a 3Kw oil column heater (or two!) in there for working in the garage in the winter... :wink: That's a bit more than an extension reel or two from the house will handle...
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8410
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 411

Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by Mandrake »

Add another thing to the to-do list on this car: Check hand brake adjustment.

I noticed right away that the handbrake on this car is adjusted rather tight - the cable starts to pull tight almost immediately when applying the hand brake and only comes up a few clicks before it is well on. Clearly not enough slack in the adjustment. It holds very well, but I'm wondering if they don't release 100% or perhaps come on slightly when cornering.

I thought about it again on Saturday when we went for a 130 mile round trip and I went to apply the brakes hard at speed about half way through the journey after driving on a long windy stretch of road and they were a bit underwhelming, shall we say...it felt like brake fade to me - it stopped me but they felt heavy and not responsive or sharp at all, despite the fact that I hadn't done any recent hard braking to get the brakes really hot.

Just a few miles later and they seemed ok again. So I'm thinking that the hand brakes are possibly intermittently coming on very lightly during cornering as the hub tugs on the cables - enough to get the pads hot enough to start glazing the pad surfaces thus causing a bit of fade until they've been used heavily a couple of times to burn it off again.

On one previous occasion a few weeks ago I also thought I could smell slightly burning brakes when travelling along the motorway that persisted for at least 10 minutes and also thought about the tight hand brake adjustment at that time - on that occasion when we reached the destination (a retail park) I got out and went sniffing around the car but couldn't really smell anything unusual and the front wheels weren't hot...

I'm expecting the hand brake cable adjustment nuts to be rusted solid so fitting new hand brake cables may be the only way to get the adjustment correct, and might be worth doing as a preventative bit of maintenance anyway...

Has anyone else had issues with intermittently binding hand brake and would it fit the brake fade symptoms above ?
Last edited by Mandrake on 15 Sep 2014, 12:30, edited 2 times in total.
Hell Razor5543
Donor 2021
Posts: 11857
Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
x 1458

Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Yes, and it was caused by the outer sleeve getting worn through and rusting, thereby constructing the inner core.
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8410
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 411

Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by Mandrake »

Good point James, even if I adjust the slack correctly if the cable is seizing up internally it may still cause the hand brakes to intermittently stick on...

I'll try to adjust it first (although I've had the front wheels off once I didn't pay attention to the condition of the nuts on the hand brake cable) but a pair of new cables is probably the only way to guarantee the issue is resolved.

Pity one of them is only available from Citroen (or at least was available two years ago!) as GSF don't do the V6 specific cable on one side...
Hell Razor5543
Donor 2021
Posts: 11857
Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
x 1458

Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Might these help? Left has the length 1313, right has the length 1330;

http://www.carparts4less.co.uk/handbrake-cable" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Northern_Mike

Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by Northern_Mike »

They list both for the S2 V6. IIRC the left hand cable for the HDi 110 is the same as the V6 one..
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8410
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 411

Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by Mandrake »

Sadly James, those Pagid hand brake cables aren't worth squat. :evil:

I would start half way through page 13 if you want to see the rigmarole I went through tracking down the correct hand brake cables for old V6:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... &start=180" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The resolution is in the very final post of the thread. The pagid cables don't come anywhere near close actually fitting the car. I tried them and returned them...
Last edited by Mandrake on 15 Sep 2014, 13:19, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8410
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 411

Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by Mandrake »

northern_mike wrote:They list both for the S2 V6. IIRC the left hand cable for the HDi 110 is the same as the V6 one..
I know they list it Mike, but it's wrong.

Trust me, I bought them both from GSF, the V6 specific one doesn't fit, I even argued with the guy on the phone about it and he wouldn't believe me at first that their website listing is wrong.

The listings for more than one of the after market brands are also wrong for the Xantia V6. Been there done that.

See the linked thread (jump to the last post for the summary) for what I found last time...
Last edited by Mandrake on 15 Sep 2014, 13:22, edited 1 time in total.
Northern_Mike

Re: Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by Northern_Mike »

Mandrake wrote:
northern_mike wrote:They list both for the S2 V6. IIRC the left hand cable for the HDi 110 is the same as the V6 one..
I know they list it Mike, but it's wrong.

Trust me, I bought them both from GSF
Sorry, I should have made it clear I was talking about carparts4less. I just used the reg number of the V6 I recently disposed of.


Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk